Tool Library vs. Tool Table

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waynegramlich
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Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by waynegramlich »

Greetings:

I'm kind of new to this stuff, so I may be asking a newbie question...
I'm running the AppImage version of FreeCad 0.19 on Ubuntu 20.04LTS.

I notice that the [Export ...] button in the Path Tool Library editor generates "Tooltable JSON" in a format that differs from the format described in [https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Path_ToolBit_Library] . Also, I notice that it is capable of generating 14 different tools whereas the usr/Mod/Path/Tools/Shape/ directory only supports 9 different shapes. Furthermore, there seems to be some Shape's (like slittingsaw) that are not available in the GUI.

I guess I was expecting the Tool Table JSON file to be basically the same as the Tool Library format. Any illumination of this topic would be greatly appreciated. ;)

Regards,

-Wayne
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pathfinder
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by pathfinder »

This may be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgsm3jfHkZ4

As far as I'm aware, the new file is basically identical, except for the file ending. He speaks about it in the video as well.
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onekk
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by onekk »

ToolLibrary is the "new way" of using Tools.

ToolTable was the "old way".

Simply this, the underlying code is different, some things were reused, and Tool Shapes could be "customized" and added to a new Library, using a "not too complicated" method.

There are around many video, but usually video are not the "best way to learn" a complex program like FreeCAD that is "Evolving", usually the video is outdated short time after having been made and the author don't have the "decency" to check his work against "actual state" of the Program.

See this for some opinion about videos, made by competent people:

https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 38#p558138

https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 74#p532774

https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 79#p539779

Comments made by some Administrator and some Veteran, see the post count, it is not a warranty, (at least not in my case, as I'm an a learner) but usually it matters.

Some video have also no indication of what version of the program is used, have an horrible resolution making almost impossible to proper guess actions executed, as maybe the interface is localized and not everytime menu order is same between different Language, plus some menu could be altered installing Plugin or Workbench.

There are some post on which @sliptonic explain the "new way" and how to add shapes, they are not too old, few months.

Hope it helps

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
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pathfinder
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by pathfinder »

onekk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:53 am
There are around many video, but usually video are not the "best way to learn" a complex program like FreeCAD that is "Evolving", usually the video is outdated short time after having been made and the author don't have the "decency" to check his work against "actual state" of the Program.

See this for some opinion about videos, made by competent people

Every criticism you had in regards to videos is true for any other form of information as well. It can be just as outdated, miss critical information, give wrong directions and so on. It has nothing to do with the medium.

I guess you just don't like videos. Others (like me) find them quite helpful sometimes. In fact, I find they greatly help me learning complex programs like Freecad. Maybe it's different for you.

The video I linked above is from Sliptonic, where he addresses the change in the way tools are organized.
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by GeneFC »

Sliptonic videos for the Path WB are the "Gold Standard". Others may or may not be correct or useful.

Most written material, which is primarily the wiki, was correct when created but it may be outdated.

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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by GeneFC »

waynegramlich wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:37 am Also, I notice that it is capable of generating 14 different tools whereas the usr/Mod/Path/Tools/Shape/ directory only supports 9 different shapes. Furthermore, there seems to be some Shape's (like slittingsaw) that are not available in the GUI.
I do not believe there is any practical limit to the number of tools or shapes. You can add as many as wanted.

You may be quite correct that the number provided with a FreeCAD distribution is only in the single digits, but that is not a limit.

There has been a lot of progress in the past year on tools. Version 0.20 will have the latest updates.

Gene
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onekk
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by onekk »

pathfinder wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:20 pm Every criticism you had in regards to videos is true for any other form of information as well. It can be just as outdated, miss critical information, give wrong directions and so on. It has nothing to do with the medium.

I guess you just don't like videos. Others (like me) find them quite helpful sometimes. In fact, I find they greatly help me learning complex programs like Freecad. Maybe it's different for you.

The video I linked above is from Sliptonic, where he addresses the change in the way tools are organized.

Yes and No,

I hate video, because most of them are done in an horrible way, poor resolution, bad audio and "click and point" without having time to see what is clicked, and pointed, you see a pointer that travel on the screen and images that change.

But as usual there are "bad video" and "good video", but my criticism is shared by many developers too, as linked post are clearly showing.

So I'm in good company.

Speaking about "good video" is another thing, and are very helpful, but in a complex program like FreeCAD it is not trivial to show with a video the many concepts behind an action.

Even written material has his problem, and I know these problem, as I'm trying to write some tutorial in form of document, but as it is a "scripting Guide" it is very difficult to make something effective using a video.

My criticism could be misunderstood, but as you could easily see and guess many video are on YouTube and usually are placed there to "raise money", as if you have a bunch of viewer you may earn something.

A serious "video tutorial maker" now will not have video explaining FC 016 or even FC 0.17 as actual stable is 0.19 and many things are changed even in some "important WB" not speaking about some change in the UI, and menu organization that will vanify each "tutorial" as the differences are too many that it will be difficult to follow a video made for 0.16 using a 0.19 version.

A serious "video tutorial maker" will delete these old videos, or make new one with a recent version.

Sadly nowadays reading has become something "old fashioned", but when you have to deal with some complex program there are many things that are "behind the scene".

High number of newbies that come here to ask for help are simple the conseguence of this fact.

Try to explain why in some cases, if you try to do a Loft or a Sweep with some wires things may fail or create strange or totally "non sense" solids.

It is difficult to explain that if you are unluck enough to have some "seam" in the path or in the wire and "unluckily" this seam is in the wrong position operation will fail, if you rotate by 0.001 degree around the axis the solid and the seam is "out the way" all his correct.

Why?

I could tell you that is caused by some mathematical calculation that maybe in this point will calculate a tangent, and if calculated exactly at the seam it will fail as the result is infinitive or even "impossible" so the operation will fail.

Maybe to explain this some images are needed and some mathematical formulas are involved.

I doubt that in a serious shool the teacher will use a "video lesson", it should use zoom but has to integrate it with some papers, or PDF to show something that is not in the "book" or maybe it will use some "presentation", tuning his teaching pace with the learners ability to follow the concepts and maybe re explicate some thing in a different way.

Told by an European that has two sons in schools and in the past year have heard many lessons done using Zoom or Meet.

Sorry for the long post and Best Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
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pathfinder
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by pathfinder »

onekk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:52 pm
But as usual there are "bad video" and "good video", but my criticism is shared by many developers too, as linked post are clearly showing.

So I'm in good company.
I think all your points are of a personal position. It is widely established that different people learn in different ways. I personally am a very visual learner, I need to see things to really take them in. Other people work very differently. A friend of mine learns through his ears, written words, diagrams and pictures mean nothing to him. That doesn't make him dumb, he is extremely intelligent. It's just not his strength.

Speaking for myself, without video tutorials, I wouldn't be a quarter as far with Freecad than I am, which is why I'm pushing back so hard here. Your personal views don't reflect all of us.

As with any form of content, it is on the consumer of the content to realize whether something is helpful or not. I've read enough badly written tutorials which infuriated me with vague descriptions and handwaving. I still regularly stumble upon outdated written information when I search for things. Nothing of what you described is exclusive to certain formats. In fact, I find way more written content that has no date than videos. Every video shows when it was released. Not every blog post does.

The comments you linked all criticize specific videos, not the video as a format in general.
onekk wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:52 pm
I doubt that in a serious shool the teacher will use a "video lesson", it should use zoom but has to integrate it with some papers, or PDF to show something that is not in the "book" or maybe it will use some "presentation", tuning his teaching pace with the learners ability to follow the concepts and maybe re explicate some thing in a different way.
This is a false equivalency. What do you do if you don't have a teacher?

I went to design school for a while and every teacher I had who taught me how to use a program did this by demonstrating the program. That's exactly what video tutorials try to emulate. Of course you don't want teachers to show a video, they are there to do the things that would be seen in a video. At the same time, you don't want a teacher to drop a stack of books and say "just read them".

But I think we derailed this thread enough already. Do you have the link to where sliptonic wrote about the changes in tool management? Otherwise, all OP has to go off of is that potentially outdated video i posted ;)
waynegramlich
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by waynegramlich »

pathfinder wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:10 am This may be helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgsm3jfHkZ4

As far as I'm aware, the new file is basically identical, except for the file ending. He speaks about it in the video as well.
I had seen that video before. Just I couldn't reproduce it. To give you an idea of how newbie I am:

The first issue was that I needed to disable the Enable Legacy Tools in [Edit] => [Preferences ...] => [Path] => [Job Preferences] => [Tools] => [_] Use Legacy Tools. Also, ... => [Path] => [General] => [Path], I set it to .../squashfs-root/usr/Mod/Path/Tools . I'm still not sure I've got the path set right. Should I set it to Tools, .../Tools/Bit, .../Tools/Libary/, or even .../Tools/Shape. I don't know.

The second issue was .../squashfs-root/usr/Mod/Path/Tools/Bit/45degree_chamfer.fctb has a JSON error on lines 10 and 11. A comma needs to be moved from line 11 to line 10. Attempting to read this file with the comma in the wrong place throws an internal Python exception.

I need to rewatch the Sliptonic video tomorrow morning and see if I can make some more forward progress.

Thanks for your help so far!

-Wayne
;)
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onekk
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Re: Tool Library vs. Tool Table

Post by onekk »

pathfinder wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:16 pm I think all your points are of a personal position. It is widely established that different people learn in different ways.

Speaking for myself, without video tutorials, I wouldn't be a quarter as far with Freecad than I am, which is why I'm pushing back so hard here. Your personal views don't reflect all of us.
You are right, but every opinion is a "personal position" if you are not entitled to speak for some organization.
pathfinder wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:16 pm The comments you linked all criticize specific videos, not the video as a format in general.
...
This is a false equivalency. What do you do if you don't have a teacher?
...
But I think we derailed this thread enough already. Do you have the link to where sliptonic wrote about the changes in tool management? Otherwise, all OP has to go off of is that potentially outdated video i posted ;)
Yes and No, my position is that "most of the video around" are bad, and there is some good video, usually not on Youtube, as many Youtube video are made to "raise money and visibility". (I could be wrong, but this is my "sentiment")

Our position are not too distant, mine is more generalized and "badly stated", your is more articulated, sorry for the roughness. :)

I agree with many of your considerations, no need to be more OT, maybe in another thread about "advices to make good videos".

Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
- In deep articles on FreeCAD.
- Learning how to model with scripting.
- Various other stuffs.

Blog: https://okkmkblog.wordpress.com/
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