PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

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What type of PartDesign modeling tools do you prefere?

Different tools for additive and subtractive features like now
21
47%
Combine additive and subtractive tools and reduce their amount
21
47%
It's a minor thing, I don't care
3
7%
 
Total votes: 45
jmaustpc
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by jmaustpc »

bejant wrote:An option to free up some space for more toolbar icons, if that is a significant concern, could be to make the Sketcher / Part Design toolbars become adaptive and only show the tools that can be used at any given time based on what the user has selected in the hierarchy tree or the 3D view (similar to current Tasks tab behavior in master).
A usability down side to that is that you get used to where an icon is and push the mouse in that direction but if things jump around due to other tool appearing and disappearing, then it requires you to actually "read" the icon so to speak, in other words you have to pay more attention to what is there.

normandc wrote: I'm not convinced that mixing additive and subtractive tools in the same tool is a good idea. Once the feature is created, would the user be able to change it from additive to subtractive or the other way around? If so it would be a major recipe for trouble.
wmayer wrote:I second Norm.
Me too ...or is that me three? :) Regarding the above.

Mostly I think it should stay the way it is now.

Regarding putting the icons under a group icon like with current sketch polygons, in general terms for most tools I think that is a bad idea because it then requires two mouse clicks and concentration over to read which icon for the second click.

However if the tool bar does become too long, i.e. too many icons, then I would suggest that the most commonly used tools (perhaps Pad and Pocket, perhaps others) could be as they are now and either only "group" the less commonly used tools or include all tools in the groups but have the most commonly used tool in both places.

So in summary I think the way you have already done it is the best way.
triplus
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by triplus »

Small side note as i just remembered something. In TabBar i had a half working prototype and user would be able to combine/expand individual toolbar. Similar to what we have with buttons with menu in Sketcher WB.

If i ever get that to release material i will provide that as an option in TabBar.
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bejant
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by bejant »

jmaustpc wrote:A usability down side to that is that you get used to where an icon is and push the mouse in that direction but if things jump around due to other tool appearing and disappearing,
I was thinking the icons would always be in the same order, but not all are shown at once in the tool bar as this mimics the Tasks Tab behavior. And, as with the Tasks Tab, the selection changes as soon as the user actually selects something either in the hierarchy tree or 3D view instead of by cursor proximity to the toolbar.

For example, in Part Design create a default Cube.
  1. Select an edge and the Tasks Tab displays only the Edge Tools (Fillet and Chamfer).
  2. Selecting a face displays the Face Tools, which adds Create Sketch and Draft tools in the Tasks Tab.
  3. Creating a Sketch changes the Tasks Tab to display only the Sketch Tools (Create Sketch, Edit Sketch, Pad, Pocket, Revolution, and Pocket tools).
  4. Creating a subsequent Feature and selecting it in the hierarchy tree causes the four Transformation Tools (only) to appear in the Tasks Tab.
    • Selecting an Edge shows the Edge Tools and Transformation Tools (not sure Transform Tools should appear though) in the Tasks Tab 1.
    • Selecting a Face shows the Face Tools and Transformation Tools (maybe so the user doesn't have to change to the Model Tab?).
This is an example of the kind of adaptive behavior I had in mind.

But this could cause a disadvantage to the user because with unavailable tools hidden, the user can't explore by hovering the cursor over a tool and reading the ToolTip if the icon isn't visible (although then maybe ToolTips could be added to the pull-down menu tools).
din743
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by din743 »

NormandC wrote:If the only reason to combine is for lack of space in the toolbar, it is not a sufficiently good reason IMO. All CAD software that I now of clearly and cleanly separate between additive and subtractive tools.
Autodesk Inventor and PTC Creo combine additive and subtractive tools.
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NormandC
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by NormandC »

Well I did say "All CAD software that I now of". I've never seen PTC Creo, as for Autodesk Inventor I briefly tested it back in 2007. I didn't remember additive and subtractive tools being combined, could be failing memory, then again the UI has changed a lot in IV since then.

Still I was curious to find out, so I looked for a Youtube tutorial that would show how a combined tool would look like.

Autodesk Inventor 2016, extrude tool: https://youtu.be/K_ccmjW4Zr0?t=6m40s
(What cracks me up is that the tutorial is about modeling a ratchet, the exact same ratchet I remember was in the SolidWorks tutorial years ago. :D)

PTC Creo: https://youtu.be/ju4vebPPzI4?t=11m41s
drei
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by drei »

I'm a Siemens NX 10 user so I can explain how this works in NX,
From NX users can do 3D operations and booleans at the same time

Example:
You have a sketch and select Extrude / Revolce

A dialog box appears with several options regarding length, starting and end distances and boolean operation

In the boolean operation submenu, the user can select none, substract, unite and intersect


Video: https://youtu.be/y--OEGTms14?t=27s

My question is: how will this change affect importing legacy models?
Is the importer smart enough to understand the history of operations and find the appropriate replacement?
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DeepSOIC
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by DeepSOIC »

Since we are kind of gathering statistics from other CAD...
OnShape: combined.
Attachments
onshape-extrude.png
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NormandC
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by NormandC »

drei wrote:I'm a Siemens NX 10 user so I can explain how this works in NX,
DeepSOIC wrote:Since we are kind of gathering statistics from other CAD...
Well you took your bloody time guys. :D

So we've established that combining additive and subtractive tools is common in CAD software. But drei brought a good point:
drei wrote:how will this change affect importing legacy models?
Also, one more thing to consider: most of the existing icons would need to be redrawn, if not all of them.

Currently, there is a well established colour scheme for the PartDesign icons:
  • Existing geometry is blue
  • Added geometry is yellow
  • Removed geometry is red
We would have to throw all this out the window. IMO the current colour scheme works, it is consistent, while with combined tools, I doubt we will have something as clear as what we have now. (of course it's just my opinion)

And to end this post: the "Different tools" option is down one vote and there's now a 10-10 tie!!! Who's the turncoat?!? :D
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DeepSOIC
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by DeepSOIC »

NormandC wrote:We would have to throw all this out the window.
Why? I think it's still valid. Except that some new icons may be needed.
NormandC wrote: But drei brought a good point:
drei wrote:how will this change affect importing legacy models?
Legacy models will need conversion anyway. But joining the tools will make the conversion more complicated (as of now, the features need very little conversion - basically just wrapping them into part+body containers).

[Here, I mean joined internally, which doesn't mean they are joined from user's perspective. Old buttons can easily create the same features preset to do the needed BOP. Or new button layout may still create old features (switching modes is a bit complicated in this case, but still doable).]
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NormandC
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Re: PartDesign modeling tools: Combined or verbose tool set?

Post by NormandC »

DeepSOIC wrote:
NormandC wrote:We would have to throw all this out the window.
Why? I think it's still valid. Except that some new icons may be needed.
Here's the icon for Pad:
Image

And here's the one for Pocket:
Image

Which one would be used with a combined Extrude tool?

The whole colour scheme would not work anymore, I think this should be obvious. So *all* the icons would need to be redone.
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