[Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

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paddle
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by paddle »

TheMarkster wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:21 am Combining these might help new users, but will also confuse experienced users. "Where is the coincident constraint?" In retrospect, this would arguably be the way to go (combining into a single command), but doing at this point I think would add more confusion than clarity.
I agree the experienced users will get confused on their first use of the updated software. But how long will it take to understand that it must have been merged in the other tool?
Besides keeping bad things because it will confuse current users is wrong. Because currents users can adapt seamlessly to small changes like that. While new users are facing an additional complexity.

And yes you may argue that this is just a little thing to learn. But small streams make big rivers.

Lot of small things like that make learning a software difficult and encourage people to quit.
chrisb
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by chrisb »

I agree that for a good solution old users should not be a show stopper. But: first it really has to be an improvement, of course. And second there can be a certain culture of doing things, which can be different from single old users habits.
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czinehuba
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by czinehuba »

+1 from me as well. I think combining the two commands would be a step in the good direction.
GeneFC
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by GeneFC »

Adding a feature is fine. Removing a long-existing standard feature just because the programmer does not think he needs it is simply self-centered arrogance. :evil:

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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by Grub »

GeneFC wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:19 pm Adding a feature is fine. Removing a long-existing standard feature just because the programmer does not think he needs it is simply self-centered arrogance. :evil:

Gene
It's not removing a feature, it's merging 2 features in one.
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by GeneFC »

Grub wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:28 pm It's not removing a feature, it's merging 2 features in one.
Yes, and I already pointed out where this merger will fail.

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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by Grub »

GeneFC wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:38 pm Yes, and I already pointed out where this merger will fail.
Gene
I think you have to try before you say it won't work.
Don't discourage other people from trying to improve Freecad and even if it's a mistake it will have allowed people to learn and try things. And even if it causes a regression, it's not a problem because Freecad 0.20 is in development: 0.20 users know they are using a development version. If you want a fixed version so you don't change your habits, use 0.19.
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by openBrain »

I see only one solution from the discussion. Having merged commands should be an option.
Now let's discuss if it's enabled or disabled by default. :)

Remember to use the "point-on-line" icon for the merged function, or it will be strange that a sketch displays constraint that isn't link to a function.
TheMarkster
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by TheMarkster »

paddle wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:52 am
I agree the experienced users will get confused on their first use of the updated software. But how long will it take to understand that it must have been merged in the other tool?
Besides keeping bad things because it will confuse current users is wrong. Because currents users can adapt seamlessly to small changes like that. While new users are facing an additional complexity.

And yes you may argue that this is just a little thing to learn. But small streams make big rivers.

Lot of small things like that make learning a software difficult and encourage people to quit.
Such changes can also encourage people to quit, especially those that are already contemplating for example going back to a commercial package. Imagine a user in a time crunch to get a project done and he spends literally hours trying to figure out what happened to the bloody point on point constraint. And this could take hours if he needs to ask on the forum and wait for a response, especially if his first post must be approved by a moderator.

Perhaps it can be done in stages. Leave the icon there with a warning it will be removed in the next version. It would be similar to deprecating a function in a software library.
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Re: [Behaviour suggestion] Merge 'Coincident' and 'point on object'

Post by davidosterberg »

Personally I don't think it will make a great difference to the intuitiveness of FreeCAD. Users are getting it as it is now. And they will also get it if we merge the two functions. So in essence the net gain is that we will have less cluttered sketcher toolbar. I say let's try it out and see how it feels for a while. But instead of removing the coincident constraint icon we pop up a "Warning: Coincident is depricated will be removed in future version. Use Point-on-object instead". Perhaps we can put the coincident coinstraint icon in a submenu below the point-on-object. Like it is for constrain diameter.
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