Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Discussion about the development of the Assembly workbench.
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ppemawm
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby ppemawm » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:25 pm

kbwbe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:16 pm
Now it is possible, to design things with A2p using the mastersketch approach. Everything is still within separate files.
This is a useful enhancement for bottom-up modelling.

I am not so familiar with A2plus. Is it possible to also create all of the parts/bodies and final assembly in the same file similar to Assembly4 ?
That approach is critically necessary for top-down, in-context modelling, especially for larger more complicated assemblies.
"It is a poor workman who blames his tools..." ;)
triplus
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby triplus » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:31 am

ppemawm wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:25 pm
This is a useful enhancement for bottom-up modelling.
It depends, design intent.
TopDown.png
TopDown.png (25.36 KiB) Viewed 503 times
I feel that this qualifies as being a top down design. Sketch in document A was "linked" with this latest feature of A2plus, from an external document. I attached a new sketch on it, added new circle and used the link as a reference. Could have just Part Extruded the link directly. Increasing the radius of the sketch in document A increases the radius of the shape in document B (after document A save and A2+ recompute operation). Now i guess you already got a few ideas, on where exactly you could attach some coordinate systems and use Assembly 4 as a complementary option. ;)
triplus
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby triplus » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:03 am

realthunder wrote: ping
Do you feel App::Link will someday support such Sketcher geometry sharing cross-documents? Or is that out of scope, as far the App::Link is concerned?
kbwbe
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby kbwbe » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm

Hi @ppemawm,
first, i am very impressed about all the complex models you have already done with FreeCAD. Very impressive.
ppemawm wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:25 pm
This is a useful enhancement for bottom-up modelling.
My idea for the new feature within A2plus is quite the opposite. My idea goes that direction:

1) I create a master document with multiple sketches and if needed, spreadsheets, for the job to be done.
- Perhaps one sketch each for the outer dimensions, axis distances, guiding rails, fixing points, section sketches. Even on different working planes.

2) If the master document is looking ok, there is time to create first parts.
For that, a new document is created and at first step all the relevant sketches from the masterdoc for that part(s) are imported for reference purposes.
It is even possible to create only one part according to the imported sketches or even more parts for e.g. a subassembly, which can
be edited in this case in-context in one sub file.

3) When first parts are done (or a subassembly), the time is right to create the a main assembly document. Even take (import) the needed sketches
from the master document and import/constraint the newly created parts to the needed positions.

For my (very personal) needs, i have to design each part in a separate file, as all parts have to be manufactured and i have to send separate
drawings or CAD data to the suppliers ( I am using FC in real world). Also, parts are reused for more recent projects.

Going this way, everything is not so directly responsive as using links. But many things are decoupled and working on one part does not cause
heavy loads during recompute on the whole assembly.

But this is only the idea. Everyone has a different working style and perhaps i am a little bit old fashioned. I think the way described above is more top-down than bottom up.
ppemawm wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:25 pm
Is it possible to also create all of the parts/bodies and final assembly in the same file similar to Assembly4 ?
As i tried to explain above, probably not.
KBWBE

https://github.com/kbwbe/A2plus
latest release: v0.4.45c, installable via FreeCAD's addon manager
Tutorial: gripper assembly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMxcQ5tssWk
Documentation: https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/A2plus_Workbench
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ppemawm
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby ppemawm » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:22 pm

kbwbe wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm
I think the way described above is more top-down than bottom up.
Thank you for all your comments.
I now understand better the direction you are going with top down, master sketch driven modelling.
kbwbe wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:52 pm
It is even possible to create only one part according to the imported sketches or even more parts for e.g. a subassembly, which can
be edited in this case in-context in one sub file.
I am intrigued with this approach with sub-assemblies, perhaps it is the best of both worlds. Next project, I'll give it a try. Thank you for continuing the development of this software.
"It is a poor workman who blames his tools..." ;)
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roerich_64
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby roerich_64 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:45 pm

ppemawm wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:22 pm
ping
@ppemawm,

have also a look to: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 10#p286500

and: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 20#p286760

BR
Walter
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ppemawm
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby ppemawm » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:16 pm

roerich_64 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:45 pm
have also a look to: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 10#p286500
Thank you for reminding me of this tutorial. Well done, BTW.

I am working my way through your tutorials again and find that it is something quite similar to what I have envisioned for the more complex assemblies in which I am interested. I confess to have have only a superficial knowledge of A2plus so probably do not fully appreciate its capabilities. But, it seems to me best for bottom-up modeling (assembling existing part models). Bottom-up is probably by far the majority of use cases.

However, I find it absolutely necessary to have the ability to create all parts top-down, in-context as an assembly. That is why I was first interested in the capabilities of Assembly4 (@zolko). I do not see how one can design a new, original, prototype, or bespoke assembly and detail each of its unique parts without modelling in-context. Which, of course, requires that all parts (or its link) be in the same file at the same time, at least in the area surrounding the model I am working on, as a subassembly perhaps.

And, for parts that have to move within the assembly, at least, it is necessary to define and constrain these with a mastersketch using carboncopy, shapebinders, or external references so that part clearances can easily be checked over its range of motion during modelling. Once all the parts are modeled in-context then the (sub)assembly is, in essence, completed and constrained using the mastersketch as the solver. Individual parts can then be saved to its own file for reuse or modification in other assemblies, if necessary. Assembly4 facilitates this in-context process as well as bottom-up from existing models.

Someday I hope to see the best features and database structure of all the assembly workbenches available and compatible with each other.
"It is a poor workman who blames his tools..." ;)
triplus
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby triplus » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:26 pm

Hi @ppemawm

I remember the terms like top-down, bottom-up, in-context ... were used in some of the discussions in the past. At that time we had a more theoretical discussions, about what levels of support we would like to achieve in FreeCAD. This are by no means excluding terms, they are just different strategies being used, based on the design intent. Possible when implemented on the technical level in some way. What is now happening is a lot of developers are working on adding assembly support to FreeCAD and a lot of such concepts are being introduced. A2plus workbench main focus was to introduce a geometric constraint solver, where Assembly 4 uses an expression engine, as a solver, to superimpose coordinate system feature placement. As for top-down, bottom-up and in-context support, there is no special reason, on why any of the mentioned modules couldn't support such paradigms.
fc_tofu
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby fc_tofu » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:32 am

kbwbe wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:09 am
...

UPDATE: Look for newest complete testworkbech at newer posts within this tread. (For Win and Linux now)
a2plus version: 0.4.36
fc version: 0.18.4/0.19pre
os: win10x64
moinitor: 1366*768

Hello, kwbme

A minor UI bug of A2plus was found on fc 0.18.4/0.19pre (slightly different).
1. On fc01.9pre, horizontal lines are truncated before end.
2. On fc0.18.4, same as above. And no scroll bar on the right, so bottom line is truncated on the bottom.

Please take a look.
fsc_2020-02-07_171541b.jpg
fsc_2020-02-07_171541b.jpg (119.59 KiB) Viewed 273 times
fsc_2020-02-07_170652b.jpg
fsc_2020-02-07_170652b.jpg (133.08 KiB) Viewed 273 times
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Kunda1
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Re: Another approach to assembly solver (A2plus)

Postby Kunda1 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:52 pm

yikes, those fonts :shock:
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