BIM workbench UI discussion

A forum dedicated to the Draft, Arch and BIM workbenches development.
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microelly2
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby microelly2 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:58 pm

regis wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:49 pm
microelly2 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:05 pm

We have some good tools by tripus: Piemenu, Command, Toolbar
we should look for a way to use them to create an easy to configure environment
this strategy will solve these problems:

I don't understand what you mean here. Do you have some pictures and links?
https://github.com/triplus/CommandPanel
https://github.com/triplus/PieMenu
https://github.com/triplus/Launcher
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regis
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:32 pm

microelly2 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:58 pm
regis wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:49 pm
microelly2 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:05 pm

We have some good tools by tripus: Piemenu, Command, Toolbar
we should look for a way to use them to create an easy to configure environment
this strategy will solve these problems:

I don't understand what you mean here. Do you have some pictures and links?
https://github.com/triplus/CommandPanel
https://github.com/triplus/PieMenu
https://github.com/triplus/Launcher
ah i see, I can see a use for the Launcher and Command Pannel. How ever my experience with PieMenu hasn't been very great, even in programs like blender.
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bitacovir
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby bitacovir » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm

There are too many toolbar buttons already
There are not enough buttons. Some useful tools from other workbenches should be there too
Some icons should have another color (ex. those that create a new object should be yellow)
Some people want less tools
Some people want more tools (a separate one for doors and windows, for ex)
ATM the toolbars reflect identically the contents of the menu. Should we differentiate? Which tools should stay on the toolbar?


Maybe I'm wrong, but the toolbar should have only the more frequently used tools in a WB workflow. Is to speed up the user workflow. But, too many tools in the toolbar will make more slow to find a tool and will reduce the area of 3D view and other windows (for special cases you can always customize the toolbar). I would recommend keeping the idea of more used tools for the toolbar.
If you keep only this kind of tools in the toolbar, the menu can gather the rest or total of the commands. It does not matter, because it does not use area in the desktop.
Yorik, Since some days ago you changed the position of tools in the toolbar. I could not understand the new logic. With your picture now I see, but the mixture with icon colors is confusing. Are you planning to change the icon colors only for BIMWB or for ArchWB too?
Also, You don't need to think that people are stupid or simple mind. They can learn that menus have more useful tools. They can learn that can bring these tools to the toolbar if they need them with more frequency. They can learn that other WB tools can be used in their design process. They can understand that in a tool with a good icon design they will find a panel with the commands to create presets of windows and doors, or column, beam, etc. We don't need individual tools for each existing object in this world.
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regis
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:30 pm

bitacovir wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm
the toolbar should have only the more frequently used tools in a WB workflow
Perhaps but that is a relative suggestion. I use quite a bit of them in the workflow as well. What if a professional uses 70 tools vs a newbie who uses 20 tools? In my opinion de-cluttering is useful here, Streamlining is useful so we don't have too many random tools doing the same thing.
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Moult
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby Moult » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 pm

One more thing to think about is whether or not the shortcuts are good keys. In Blender, even though all the UI is hidden which confuses new users, it has a very well designed shortcut system because:

1. Shortcuts are only one keypress. Which makes things very, very fast!
2. Shortcuts use the left side of the keyboard so you can keep the right hand on the mouse (e - extrude, f - face, b - bounding box select, c - circle select, x - delete, r - rotate, g - grab/move, w - special, s - scale) these are all super common tools and is what makes pro Blender users really really fast
3. Shortcuts do many things! Extruding a vertex creates a line, Extruding a line creates a face. Extruding two vertices creates two lines.

So perhaps the workflow can also be improved by:

1. One key shortcut? Maybe unnecessary?
2. Move shortcuts to the left
3. Make tools smarter and combine tools so a shortcut is more powerful (e.g. MO,P does a copy command. What it it were "GC" for grab copy and "GG" for a regular move?)
I also blog about 3D rendering, architecture, software and other on thinkMoult.com. RSS / Atom feed available for your convenience.
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bitacovir
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby bitacovir » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:45 pm

regis wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:30 pm
bitacovir wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm
the toolbar should have only the more frequently used tools in a WB workflow
Perhaps but that is a relative suggestion. I use quite a bit of them in the workflow as well. What if a professional uses 70 tools vs a newbie who uses 20 tools?
If a professional needs 70 tools. He will customize the toolbar to have them all. You do not need to do it for him.
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regis
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:56 am

Moult wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 pm
One more thing to think about is whether or not the shortcuts are good keys. In Blender, even though all the UI is hidden which confuses new users, it has a very well designed shortcut system because:

1. Shortcuts are only one keypress. Which makes things very, very fast!
2. Shortcuts use the left side of the keyboard so you can keep the right hand on the mouse (e - extrude, f - face, b - bounding box select, c - circle select, x - delete, r - rotate, g - grab/move, w - special, s - scale) these are all super common tools and is what makes pro Blender users really really fast
3. Shortcuts do many things! Extruding a vertex creates a line, Extruding a line creates a face. Extruding two vertices creates two lines.

So perhaps the workflow can also be improved by:

1. One key shortcut? Maybe unnecessary?
2. Move shortcuts to the left
3. Make tools smarter and combine tools so a shortcut is more powerful (e.g. MO,P does a copy command. What it it were "GC" for grab copy and "GG" for a regular move?)
I agree, if you have good short cut suggestions and a short cut list table it would be very interesting. We can create an alternate WB to test it and if most agree of it's functionality for other workbenches we can integrate it, or else we will just keep it for Arch.
I'm impressed you also have a blender background. It seems a lot of people coming here have some kind of Blender background as well already. I am aware that Freecad Community is really protective of Freecad and don't like to entertain blender ideas as much, but I do think if there is an opportunity to be closer to blender it will be at our advantage as well.
Last edited by regis on Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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regis
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:09 am

bitacovir wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:45 pm
regis wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:30 pm
bitacovir wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:09 pm
the toolbar should have only the more frequently used tools in a WB workflow
Perhaps but that is a relative suggestion. I use quite a bit of them in the workflow as well. What if a professional uses 70 tools vs a newbie who uses 20 tools?
If a professional needs 70 tools. He will customize the toolbar to have them all. You do not need to do it for him.
:lol: :lol: Haha, forgive me but I have no interest in fighting you with words atm. @bitacovir, Although I see your point, I fail to see how it is so relevant at this point that we must absolutely harp on it now. (maybe later but not now). Besides, I don't understand what is wrong with streamlining a few tools and making it better. If some folks don't like current setup they can keep the default WB as they are right? but what's the matter if someone wants to make something better based on how they use it frequently? and based on what is helpful for industry? I get your point about having more frequently used tool, (well why not have a basic workbench which has those frequently used tools like the Arch and Part workbenches are already basic by their design? But if we are having this conversation it is exactly because the current setup is showing its limits and they must be addressed. Let's start first by streamlining what needs to be addressed, and then it will give us an opportunity to determine what can and cannot go where afterwards. But before we do that we can't get into the conversation of which is more used vs not more used at this point as it is not yet relevant. We'll get there but one step at at time. And besides, we are just brainstorming ideas (I can't program yet) so we haven't even spoken about who is going to help us implement these things efficiently. What about the currently mentioned issues? etc etc at least those we can start addressing right now that are pretty obvious?..... I mean there is so much to do it is not really helpful to get stuck in this level of conversation at this point. don't you agree?
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bitacovir
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby bitacovir » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:28 am

But I am not fighting. Anyway, my opinion is just about the six points of Yorik. Sorry if it was too late. It was not my intention to move down the level of the discussion.
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regis
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Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:50 am

bitacovir wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:28 am
But I am not fighting. Anyway, my opinion is just about the six points of Yorik. Sorry if it was too late. It was not my intention to move down the level of the discussion.
Not a problem, it's not as if we know everything there is to know in the world anyways. But I hope i didn't also scare you from providing your own feedback. I'm afraid I must have.