BIM workbench UI discussion

A forum dedicated to the Draft, Arch and BIM workbenches development.
carlopav
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby carlopav » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:38 am

Moult wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 pm
1. Shortcuts are only one keypress. Which makes things very, very fast!
2. Shortcuts use the left side of the keyboard so you can keep the right hand on the mouse (e - extrude, f - face, b - bounding box select, c - circle select, x - delete, r - rotate, g - grab/move, w - special, s - scale) these are all super common tools and is what makes pro Blender users really really fast
3. Shortcuts do many things! Extruding a vertex creates a line, Extruding a line creates a face. Extruding two vertices creates two lines.
I really like the navigation style approach, where one can chose between other app navigation stile, so if one is coming from blender/revit/cad, it could select a shortcut preset that mimic the app he come from... and so we could experiment different setups
what do u think about that?
User avatar
regis
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:17 am
Contact:

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby regis » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:08 pm

carlopav wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:38 am
I really like the navigation style approach, where one can chose between other app navigation stile, so if one is coming from blender/revit/cad, it could select a shortcut preset that mimic the app he come from... and so we could experiment different setups
what do u think about that?
Yes beyond the shadow of a doubt, this is an epic Freecad thing, to be able to select the navigational style from a program we are familiar with. I love it so much it is something that must stay. So we can just add more presets for like Revit or other main software's.
User avatar
yorik
Site Admin
Posts: 11552
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:16 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Contact:

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby yorik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:50 pm

keyboard shortcuts is a though one, basically there are so many tools in FreeCAD that it's a problem using single-letters shortcuts (you see that many other apps have the same problem and use the same solution...). Besides, after you get used to them, two-letter shortcuts are totally fast enough I think. Just a matter to train your muscle memory. After all, in autocad command-line times, several commands had more than one letter, and nobody considered that a problem.

And also, Blender users will want Blender shortcuts, Revit users will want Revit shortcuts, etc... Unsolvable problem :)

And ultimately, all this is customizable by the user, so we should more consider the default shortcuts only as a proposed default...

About the rest of this discussion, there are two critical aspects I think. One is a "general discussion on the BIM interface", which obviously we shoudn't expect to come to any conclusion anytime soon :D but it's nevertheless interesting, the "more tools vs. less tools" question is something where debate does good I think, and the idea that Moult raised ("separate" the meaning (wall, column, etc) from the geometry generation type) interests me a lot too

And the second aspect is: What is simple, small and can be done quickly, not to solve all the BIM workbench problems, but to solve one small, particular issue? Mixing blue and yellow icons obviously itches everybody :) (It itches me too). That's an easy one, tools that create new objects should become yellow. Tools that modify existing objects should be blue. And this will unify with the layout I proposed in the first post...

The additional tools that regis proposed to bring from other workbenches is another. Easy fixes.
paullee
Posts: 1737
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 3:58 pm

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby paullee » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:09 pm

Moult wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:35 pm

1. Shortcuts are only one keypress. Which makes things very, very fast!
2. Shortcuts use the left side of the keyboard so you can keep the right hand on the mouse (e - extrude, f - face, b - bounding box select, c - circle select, x - delete, r - rotate, g - grab/move, w - special, s - scale) these are all super common tools and is what makes pro Blender users really really fast
+1

E.g. I use Ctrl + [ key on left side of keyboard within reach of my left hand finger ] in my > 10 years of AutoCad drafting.... almost never need to move my left hand

Really Super Fast!

E.g.
Ctrl+z = Zoom
Ctrl+a = Zoom All
Ctrl+q = Zoom Previous
Ctrl+w = Zoom Out
Ctrl+s = Zoom In

Ctrl+1 = ...
F2 = endpoint
F3 = midpoint
F4 = intersection
F5= ...

Ctrl+2 =
User avatar
bernd
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:07 pm
Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby bernd » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:51 pm

Moult wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:23 am
Ooh! My 0.02$:

I really like the idea of scrapping the concept of "wall" and "structure" and "window". I would love to see it changed to something like "Axis extrusion", "Profile extrusion", and "Opening element". That way they are named after their "geometric" function, not named after their "semantic" function. This would essentially split the toolbar into two halves: "Modeling" (axis, profiles, openings, import meshes, nurbs? part design?) and "Building information" (building parts, sites, wall, slab, window, other). The modeling tools create geometry but building information is not assigned. The building information simply assign building data to geometry. (Side note: I wonder if in IFC you can represent 2D things with 3D lines instead of solids and breps)

This is really beneficial because:

1. It breaks away the mindset that certain modeling techniques only create certain objects. This prevents people deciding to misuse objects for other IFC products. It also opens up people to the idea that there is nothing magical in BIM - it's simply data assigned to geometry, which is true :)
2. It prevents the problem in the UI where you create a wall and you see it named Wall with a wall icon. However then you change its IfcRole to something else, but it is still called Wall and still has a wall icon. This is really confusing.
3. It ensures that there is a discipline when BIM data is assigned. In programs like Revit or ArchiCAD because the modeling and BIM data is in the same tool, it means that even if you are just rapidly drawing a wall, a bunch of default (and likely incorrect!) data is assigned. This leads to poor quality BIM data. By making the building information assignment explicit, you help ensure that the user takes care to create a high quality BIM model.
++1 on first view ... Lately I had some problems with an ifc at work. An engineer said there is only crap inside. The reason was the draftsmen did model the columns with the slab tool becaus it was just easier to model the column geometry with. On the drawings wich are parametrically based on the modell this does not matter but if one would like to process the modell a column has to be a column. Most CAD out there are not flexible at all in such tools. Another example are stairs. The fastest way to make straight stairs in Allplan used to be with a special wall tool. But in the ifc they are walls then ... OK it is possible to change the ifc type in Allplan too. This should just be some examples that moult has started a very cool discussion in this point!!!

BUT it has disadvantages too. I see point 3 as a benefit because one does not need to set it explicit.
User avatar
bernd
Posts: 8438
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:07 pm
Location: Zürich, Switzerland

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby bernd » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:54 pm

Moult wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:23 am
I wonder if in IFC you can represent 2D things with 3D lines instead of solids and breps)
As far as I know only solids and faces are possible not lines. All lines are annotations. At least I have never seen something different from this.

In structural analysis view ifc files lines and vertexes are allowed as geometry, but these files use a different mvd. They are not coordination view files.

bernd
User avatar
yorik
Site Admin
Posts: 11552
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:16 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Contact:

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby yorik » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:53 pm

bernd wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:54 pm
As far as I know only solids and faces are possible not lines. All lines are annotations. At least I have never seen something different from this.
That's my experience as well
carlopav
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby carlopav » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:22 pm

yorik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:50 pm
the "more tools vs. less tools" question
I don't know if i'm too specific, but i'd to share some thoughts also if i''ve been just using freecad for a month...
I'd like more tools, but grouped by common behaviour or result you expect, or... else? It is to say i'd like less tools, but more powerful:

on the create toolbar for example: just one arc, but with tasks pannel showing the possibility to create it from center point, from end/end/mid, from end/mid/end. or in alternative a dropdown button that let you chose which tool to use, but in the toolbar definitely just one arc.

in the modification tools:
- i'd like to group copy clone and unclone, or at least clone and unclone in one dropdown button
- move, rotate, scale, mirror, stetch are ok by their own, since are the most used/recognizable
- Offset should be grouped again into one tool with the possibility to select different behaviours
then here we come to special commands:
- TRIMEX: i like how it works, but i'd like to make it more consistent: to me it's a tool that operate on just ONE object and modify it along one of it's axes (don't create new objects). this could work on lines, rectangles, arcs (moving end points along circumference), circles (transforming into arcs or making the circle tangent to selected destination shape and keeping center point fixed), boxes, spheres (like circles), walls, wires, slabs (stretching it), ecc. (this could have a special mode to select a destination line and trim/extend lot of other lines like autocad, but thats not necessary). Reference behaviour could be sketchup push/pull. I think this tool could also incorporate the "cut object with a plane" command since that's actually a trim or an extend to a plane.
- JOIN: it's a tool that operate on two ore more object (eventually joining them at one end with fillets or chamfers), working as trimex on more object as possible
DraftEXTRUDE: it's a tool that operates on one object and upgrade it into a new object: points became line, line became rectangles, rectangles became boxes, faces works like actual TRIMEX on solids (creating a new extruded solid). reference behavioud could be blender extrude.

I can imagine those tools are more complex to mantein, but i think they are also more intuitive for the user that dont have to look for the one he need.

in the end i'd like to give some love to the draft edit tool (i already fixed some behaviour on the arc and circle edit), and i'd like it could be activated every time an object is selected, without having to launch it every time, same with the boxSelection.

Also i noticed in the tooltip the "ctrl to snap, alt to copy, shift to constrain" but it sound strange to me that later is P to copy in many commands.

The topic Mould proposed is really really interesting, i'm just afraid of it could lead to really untidy drawings if the drafter is in a hurry for a deadline or just don't care much about it... think about autocad layers... there are still many people around using just 3 layers according to lineweight. Maybe we have to create a preset with a good default grouping tree... (?). Revit for example have this approach just with LOCAL MODEL tool, that makes you choose what you are drawing (wall, window, etc) before creating the geometry. But that would be really annoying to have to choose that for every object you are creating.

sorry if i've been too long-winded
carlopav
Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby carlopav » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:26 pm

PS i have two icons for "noshading" and "hiddenline", dont know if this is the right place...
Attachments
DrawStyleNoshading.svg
(7.04 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
DrawStyleHidden.svg
(6.08 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
Roy_043
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: BIM workbench UI discussion

Postby Roy_043 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:22 pm

Roy_043 wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:18 am
There is a 'nameless' BIM toolbar that is missing in Yorik's screenshots
Just noticed that this toolbar is only available if the BIM WB is the start up WB. If you switch to another WB and then back to the BIM WB it is gone...

Code: Select all

OS: Windows 8.1
Word size of OS: 64-bit
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.18.15697 (Git)
Build type: Release
Branch: master
Hash: dedaa807629ab25cf32977d30bf7610f1346aff7
Python version: 2.7.14
Qt version: 4.8.7
Coin version: 4.0.0a
OCC version: 7.2.0
Locale: Dutch/Netherlands (nl_NL)