Ticket #4313 - Increase backup file default (was: Preferences- Number of backup files to save?)

[chrisb]

My vote it to keep it at 1 because this is a default setting. The default should be suitable for the average users and beginners. Expert users can change it quickly.

Expert users don't need many backup files, beginners do. Dig the forum, and you will see that new users are well advised to set this to a high value.
Experts know what they are doing and how to handle unforeseen issues. Beginners don't even realise immediately that a problem is dawning. They see far too late, that they have destroyed their model, and often have to start from scratch.
I admit that that's a good teaching exercise, but shouldn't be provoked by such defaults.

[uwestoehr]

Expert users don't need many backup files, beginners do.

I can only input my experience and this is something like this:
- User: What are these annoying FCStd1 files?
- Me: This is a backup file.
- User: Why do I need this, other programs like Word also don't have this?
- Me: ...starting a longer explanation...
- User: but then why should I trust FreeCAD that it needs backup files. What other program uses backup files?
- Me: ...looking for an example and failing. No program we use at work uses permanent backup files. LibreOffice uses e.g. temporary ones and deletes them when closing the main file.

Note: I never said my experience is THE one or RIGHT. Users and application cases are different. I can only contribute what I experienced.

[kisolre]

Until one loses really important data all words about backups and all are like telling a child not to touch the hot stove - just hope that the first time that happens the burns will be small...

[Kunda1]

Until one loses really important data all words about backups and all are like telling a child not to touch the hot stove - just hope that the first time that happens the burns will be small...

Experiential knowledge is the most powerful. Very hard to convince people unless they've suffered consequences.

- User: but then why should I trust FreeCAD that it needs backup files. What other program uses backup files?

This is a very newb way of thinking about this.
But for the sake of argument the answer I'd give is better to be safe than sorry and what is the harm in being cautious. Are you worried about clutter? It is harmless.
Other possible arguments:
We don't use cloud storage, FC saves files locally. Even with Cloud storage people lose their work/data.
Many programs save backups. Even MS, it's just hidden from view.

Examples:
https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/late ... cover.html

[bambuko]

There are also users who prefer for example to have a backup of the folder consisting of a number of linked files, rather than have a mess of individual files in this folder being backed up?
I find it a lot more convenient to have my own scheme for backing up assembly project folders rather than individual files.
OK, probably less convenient (read=requires my action rather than relaying on "automation")
It requires me to be disciplined and orderly (which probably wouldn't suit majority ) but I like it

Unless I am missing something (not unheard off ) this topic is for people working on single self-contained files?

[GeneFC]

This entire matter of selecting defaults occurs again and again in the forum. At least a couple just today. It will never be solved because preferences are exactly that, preferences. Many options actually *work*, but different folks have different tastes.

Instead of continually trying to find the ideal default preferences perhaps there should be some emphasis on the download page or the FreeCAD start page that warns new users to consider preferences. An early step in troubleshooting recommendations should be to check preferences. Most of the important ones for new users are in Edit >> Preferences rather than buried in Tools >> Parameters, so it should be pretty easy to dig through the options.

This topic shows that there is a great variation even in such a simple concept as the number of backups. There is zero hope of consensus across a wide range of preferences.

(And I don't accept the idea that your preferences are better than mine, because that is clearly wrong. )

Gene

[Kunda1]

Instead of continually trying to find the ideal default preferences perhaps there should be some emphasis on the download page or the FreeCAD start page that warns new users to consider preferences. An early step in troubleshooting recommendations should be to check preferences. Most of the important ones for new users are in Edit >> Preferences rather than buried in Tools >> Parameters, so it should be pretty easy to dig through the options.

Agreed. There are so many ways we can inform users this way but does it happen...? not quite yet. And throwing more text for users to read at download or in FreeCAD itself, probably a small percentage of users will read/comprehend. We need to anticipate this and just err on the side of caution. Let the user post-install tweak this preference to less or more. But on the safe side, lets create a large safety net for them. Especially since FC is pre v1.0 (runs and hides not to start that thread up again).

'5' is the loose average of the feedback so far.

[uwestoehr]

Many programs save backups. Even MS, it's just hidden from view.

Good point. So we could hive the backups. Within FC we can create a recovery dialog in which you can choose what existing backup file should be restored.

This is a very newb way of thinking about this.
But for the sake of argument the answer I'd give is better to be safe than sorry and what is the harm in being cautious. Are you worried about clutter?

Allow me a off-topic, general words to understand me a bit:
Personally I never had a problem with backups and already benefit from them! I work in a Win-only, Office 365/Teams world with a centralized IT. We get new programs all the time, are not allowed to use every program we want.
Also compared to other CAD software, FC is different in many respects. And since most of the time you just need a job to be done within a certain time, you don't investigate internals of a program (in one year you might have to use another program). What you see are the remains after a FC session. You see new files you don*'t know about and other programs do not have this. This is stress because it consumes time to find out what this is, why it is there etc.
What I want to say is that most users I know personally are under stress and simply don't have the time, to look deeper in a program, write a forum post or read in the forum. However, the Wiki is read and the feedback I get is that our Wiki is excellent

I worked for about 10 years with SolidWorks and despite the Toponaming, I can work as fast as with FC after the usual learning time one needs for every CAD program.

[Chrismettal]

I would also vote for a bigger default number of backups. I personally use 9 as well. Don't know if I would set the minimum allowed higher, but the default value definitely.

I guess the main problem, which I understand, is the clutter in your work folder, having 10 files of unknown origin next to your file looks weird. In my first published projects I also uploaded the backup files since I thought these are just required containers for the actual project file. KiCad for example automatically saves backup zips in a subfolder next to the actual project. This would clear up things for new users and make the directory look far more clean. Also makes it a biit easier to put the backups in a .gitignore file, as currently you have to do something like:

Code: Select all

# FreeCAD backup files
*.FCBak
*.FCStd*
!*.FCStd

Also I think the "Use Date and .FCBak extension" option is way more intuitive to see that these are actually just backup files. May we also vote on making this the default? Is there much value in the other option nowadays?

[bambuko]

...I guess the main problem, which I understand, is the clutter in your work folder, having 10 files of unknown origin next to your file looks weird....

+1 on that
One of the main reasons I dislike official FreeCAD backup scheme and do my own thing
is it possible to create separate backup subfolder in the project folder as part of the backup process ?