Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

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triplus
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by triplus »

You are correct, sometimes the FreeCAD info is really not needed and in the thread you referenced, I did not take the poster to task because it was not needed. I did however make a note of it for several reasons. First off, personally I view the FreeCAD info like I do lawyers, guns and money, better to have and not need than to need and not have.
In a way i could agree BUT because in majority of threads FreeCAD info is just not needed i wonder why having a policy that in a way mandates it is a good thing.
Second, as I stated previously, if someone is not able to, or in this case, belligerently refuses to, perform that one simple task, it leaves me in serious doubt as to whatever help I might give after that point will be of any use.
Well i would not go into "psychology aspect" of why this happens but is it known to happen and therefore only looking at the result... well i guess we could do better.
Most of the time the new forum member is just asked to read and come back, as was with this case. Things went south when the OP flat out refused to do so and then proceeded to spend far more time and effort complaining about that simple request than it would of ever taken to just do it.
First time users indeed should be "educated" for whatever it makes sense to "educate" them but i wonder if this is correct approach. I did find some mods that would probably do better job:

https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/mod/ ... _redirect/
https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/mod/ ... rst_login/

But i guess if the solution is not "built in" it is probably not going to be used in the first place. Anyway i am guessing it is up to the "support staff" on this forum to improve this situation in the end.

If it makes sense to supply FreeCAD info and it is not there well ask for it and maybe to mention why is it needed in that situation and if the user does not supply leave it be. For majority of threads where FreeCAD info itself is not needed loosen the policy and not to mandate FreeCAD info in the first place. "Support staff" on this forum is smart enough to make educated guess and make this work without much hassle.

P.S. Do not worry there will still be threads where users will be able to have "much hassle"!
jmaustpc
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by jmaustpc »

Hi everyone
Firstly, yes, you should always keep this as polite as possible.....even if you think someone is an idiot and they are making you want to scream in frustration!!! :)

However triplus, ulrich1a you two are factually incorrect....it is nearly always important to get the help about FreeCAD data.

Firstly before I provide support, wherever possible I fire up my version of FreeCAD as close to theirs as possible and confirm what I am about to write....for that reason alone I need their version data.

Its also not just the FreeCAD data we often want (with something like 1400 commits nearly all of FreeCAD has been effected in some way or other since 0.13.1830), its the O/S, O/S version and the versions of all the LIbs ...and its who compiled it with what compile options, and from what branch of the source code. I have several versions of OCE/OCC on my system as well as numerous FreeCAD versions.

You also have to think of the future! :) In the future people will to look up what will then be an old post and then wonder "what version were they talking about back then?"

If someone does not know how to do something in FreeCAD then it is a logical extension, that almost certainly they can not possibly know if the version data is relevant to their question or not.

This case is a perfect example, yes the image wb work flow has not changed between 0.13.1830 and current master, but Draft most definitely has. Draft can now optionally make Part objects that will not accept an image. This changed at some point after 0.13 development was finish. I.e. Not all 0.14Dev versions have this change.

About the links you posted Triplus, they are interesting, I think this matter is frustrating some of us enough that we need to do something about it. I had an idea of having some sort of compulsory field to fill in but that had many issues but your idea of at least making them have to look at the topic the first time they log in might remind at least some of them. It might make some difference.

triplus wrote:"Support staff" on this forum is smart enough to make educated guess and make this work without much hassle.


For the record we are not "staff" or if we are someone forgot to send me my pay..... :)

And after years of experience in I.T. support I can assure you that you NEVER make assumptions. A very big percentage of our call outs turned out to be something quite stupid, like the computer's power point was turned off! Also a lot of our call outs' resolution was something totally different from what the customer was actually complaining about. For example...my monitor has died....no actually the PCI modem card has been fried by lightning on the telephone line and is pulling down the system's PCI bus. Another classic ...a particular program is locking up the computer...no actually it has faulty/wrong speed RAM fitted ..or overheating cpu/gpu because of dust blocking the fan.
mario52
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by mario52 »

hi
a suggestion for changing the login page
in this way the new see immediately the imperative of freecad forum and how to do before connecting.
Login_And_FreeCAD_Info
Login_And_FreeCAD_Info
Login_And_FreeCAD_Info.jpg (461.96 KiB) Viewed 2526 times
mario
Maybe you need a special feature, go into Macros_recipes and Code_snippets, Topological_data_scripting.
My macros on Gist.github here complete macros Wiki and forum.
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bejant
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by bejant »

Normally I'm very tolerant when people don't post their Help -> About FreeCAD -> Copy to Clipboard info. But to me this situation is different because from the very first post the OPer showed no respect for the people trying to help.

If the OP had read something like:
"I did a forum search and got pages and pages of results" instead of:
"A search turned up one post from two years ago"
at least that statement would have been believable.

After that the OPer consistently decided to not follow the very simple advice that was repeatedly given before I first posted. The Help -> About FreeCAD -> Copy to Clipboard info is either posted or not. If someone actually tries it there's not much chance for error.

When I replied with "Fail", I was simply stating what by then was already obvious.

Most every forum in which I've posted has it's own rules and protocol, and many of them are much more stringent than we are here. It's not unreasonable to expect anyone (except maybe children) to follow the rules after they've been told to do so time and time again. If in my first post I can do what is asked for, anyone can.
ulrich1a wrote:This forum thread should not end without the answer posted.
Jim had given an answer, but why everything was greyed out as stated in the OP we'll probably never know.

But now if a new user consistently refuses to do what is asked I'll probably just refrain from posting in that thread.
ulrich1a
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by ulrich1a »

I do understand the frustration of the OP, because I had not used the tracing feature before. So at trying the same, I went into the same trap and imported a picture and could do nothing with it, except of having a look at it.

So lets look forward and improve the image workbench. Two better buttons for the image workbench are needed. Any suggestions?

Ulrich
triplus
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by triplus »

But now if a new user consistently refuses to do what is asked I'll probably just refrain from posting in that thread.
Well as i said i will not go into "psychology aspect" why this happens but this sort of thing is known to happen every now and then and we can disregard this fact or we could do better. We can improve situation on technical level or we can change (loosen) policy or do both or do something else or yes do nothing and every now and then face the same situation.
However triplus, ulrich1a you two are factually incorrect....it is nearly always important to get the help about FreeCAD data.
I do not remember if i ever asked somebody to provide FreeCAD info because otherwise i could not provide the answer. If i knew something was added in dev version like better RayTracing support i just mention stuff like templates selection is only available in dev version and it does not make much difference if original poster uses stable version or not and if i have that info before giving the answer. My answer would stay the same.
Firstly before I provide support, wherever possible I fire up my version of FreeCAD as close to theirs as possible and confirm what I am about to write....for that reason alone I need their version data.
Or you could just give the information on what and how it works on your platform/FreeCAD version because in the end this is exactly what you will do regardless of the provided FreeCAD info from original poster?
Its also not just the FreeCAD data we often want (with something like 1400 commits nearly all of FreeCAD has been effected in some way or other since 0.13.1830), its the O/S, O/S version and the versions of all the LIbs ...and its who compiled it with what compile options, and from what branch of the source code. I have several versions of OCE/OCC on my system as well as numerous FreeCAD versions.
Well compiling is quite specific task and somebody wanting to do that usually provides the info of what platform it will be done. About operating system used usually when it comes to bugs it makes sense to see the info. This is one specific case when having info makes sense but because users on this forum are quite experienced educated guess plays a role here to if the info is there or not.
You also have to think of the future! :) In the future people will to look up what will then be an old post and then wonder "what version were they talking about back then?"

If someone does not know how to do something in FreeCAD then it is a logical extension, that almost certainly they can not possibly know if the version data is relevant to their question or not.

This case is a perfect example, yes the image wb work flow has not changed between 0.13.1830 and current master, but Draft most definitely has. Draft can now optionally make Part objects that will not accept an image. This changed at some point after 0.13 development was finish. I.e. Not all 0.14Dev versions have this change.
Well for users having deeper insight what happens between the versions i guess it always makes sense for them to provide this information in the answer regardless of FreeCAD info from original poster. Latest stable + dev version in the end are the two versions "we support" on this forum don't we? Just give the info in the answer for both versions.

For users using just "stable" or "dev" version and wanting to help well just give the answer on what and how it works in used version on your computer. We can not expect everybody has both stable and dev version installed and has deeper insight for every change between them. For user having that insight well it makes sense to always mention that in the given answer regardless of FreeCAD info provided from original poster?
ulrich1a
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by ulrich1a »

bejant wrote:Jim had given an answer, but why everything was greyed out as stated in the OP we'll probably never know.
When you read Jims post carefully, you will recognize, that the answer only states that the requested function works. Jims post did not explain how to do trace over an image. And that was the OPs question.

I am now more interested in improving FreeCAD regarding tracing over an image. An explanation is missing in the Help. The buttons in the Image Workbench are candidates for exchange.

Ulrich
jmaustpc
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by jmaustpc »

mario52 wrote:hi
a suggestion for changing the login page
in this way the new see immediately the imperative of freecad forum and how to do before connecting.

interesting idea Mario

Only thing is I think most of us log in from the bottom of the index page, so I don't know how many would use the log in page?

Jim
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NormandC
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by NormandC »

ulrich1a wrote:I do understand the frustration of the OP
And what about the frustration of the forum regulars who reply to newcomers everyday and have to repeat the same request over and over and over and over again?!?

I find it telling that the two people who've criticized what happened here do not actually spend as much time reading and replying to newcomers.

I would wager that jmaustpc, quick61 and bejant (and I at some point, but I've been laying low lately) are dedicating as much of their free time answering newcomers' questions as some FreeCAD developers spend on programming.

They write insightful, exhaustive replies, provide sample files, and even record videos.

Do you have any idea how long this can take??? And they do it everyday.

They do that to help others, with (almost) no expectation in return. They are not "support staff" as triplus would put it, they are VOLUNTEERS.

Here's the "almost": is it too much to ask for newcomers to do TWO SIMPLE THINGS in return? that is
  1. Read the "Read first" topic
  2. Following that, posting their FreeCAD info
As bejant said:
bejant wrote:Most every forum in which I've posted has it's own rules and protocol, and many of them are much more stringent than we are here.
So yeah, this could have been dealt with a little more gracefully, but before throwing rocks to the "support staff", how about putting yourselves in their shoes first.
ulrich1a
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Re: Tracing over imported jpg or bitmap images

Post by ulrich1a »

normandc wrote:And what about the frustration of the forum regulars who reply to newcomers everyday and have to repeat the same request over and over and over and over again?!?
Thats why I said, I am now more interested to improve FreeCAD. This will make life for all easier.
I highly appreciate your commitment to help me and others. But sometimes its better not to answer instantly, if a request seems to be kind of offending.
Some requesters do only short questions, than the experts have not to read so much, until they get the point. On the other side such a question can sound rude.
So I hope, with a slightly more relaxed view, you will get less frustrated and can help us even better. ;)
Ulrich
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