Issue #6273 - Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

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drmacro
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by drmacro »

bruce wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:41 pm ...Arbitrary plugins (while nice to accomplish specific tasks) introduce the possibility of even more hidden (?and non-encapsulated?) arbitrary state that I cannot understand. This is all amplified by the parametric model where changes to the model multiple steps ago will cascade throughout the model in possibly unpredictable ways.

For FreeCAD to be successful (Which I define as making 3D modelling a 'solved problem' wherein you wouldn't even consider another product - why would you? This is the best and it's free - see Wireshark) it needs to be intuitive. Having to switch workbenches or invoke plugins to accomplish the same class of task goes against that, especially when the possibility of incompatibilities (?are perceived to?) exist.
...
I assume you have this issue with Part and Part Design.

And your issue, I think, is because your image of their interplay is limited.

Part workbench is perfectly capable of creating the pieces of the model you have here. So, is Part Design workbench. (the apparent bug and possible documentation issues of using shapebinders aside)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with switching workbenches to accomplish a given task. The right tool, just happens to be in another drawer (workbench).

The tools in the workbenches are an attempt to collect useful tools together. Occasional use of other tool sets is good, it means the tools exist. If you find you need tools from other workbenches regularly, then add them to your favourite workbench...that's what extensible software is meant to do.

As for perceived incompatibilities, I assume you refer to Part and Part Design. Using them in conjunction makes perfect sense once you understand the rules associated with using them together. And, there are cases where it is required. As is using tools from the Draft workbench.

I do use Wireshark...but, I don't get your reference. :?
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
chrisb
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by chrisb »

bruce wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 4:41 pm For FreeCAD to be successful (Which I define as making 3D modelling a 'solved problem' wherein you wouldn't even consider another product - why would you? This is the best and it's free - see Wireshark) it needs to be intuitive.
FreeCAD is successful, so we can derive that it is intuitive - that's logical :mrgreen: .
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bruce
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by bruce »

@drmacro

Code: Select all

I assume you have this issue with Part and Part Design.
Likely yes - maybe draft a bit too. It steepens the learning curve. I spent considerable time learning to differentiate the two when I picked up the software. It was not obvious to me after using the software and reading the documentation when either should be applied, and what the interplay between the two way. This was further aggravated by the fact that there were things that could be easily accomplished in Part, but not Part Design and vice versa, and they didn't seem to play nicely together.

@chrisb

I didn't mean to offend if I did. I've used Fusion360 and IMHO FreeCAD is miles better; but there's always room for improvement, and one way to do that is to try and drive down the learning curve. I was only offering a suggestion on ways that might be accomplished.
drmacro
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by drmacro »

bruce wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:31 pm ...
Likely yes - maybe draft a bit too. It steepens the learning curve. I spent considerable time learning to differentiate the two when I picked up the software. It was not obvious to me after using the software and reading the documentation when either should be applied, and what the interplay between the two way. This was further aggravated by the fact that there were things that could be easily accomplished in Part, but not Part Design and vice versa, and they didn't seem to play nicely together.
I agree that there is a learning issue that revolves around available documentation and a plethora of bad and outdated video content.

This makes the learning curve long. But, I'd note that with similar commercial software you'd start in an immersive week long class...that cost $$.

I agree the presentation of these particular tools (and Draft) give little idea of when to use what and how. Part of that is because there is little reason to say things like: "use Part here and Part Design there" and because the documentation is bad about theory of application.

Have you read this section of this page: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Part_and_Pa ... Comparison. (Note: it probably didn't exist when you were learning...)
@chrisb

I didn't mean to offend if I did. I've used Fusion360 and IMHO FreeCAD is miles better; but there's always room for improvement, and one way to do that is to try and drive down the learning curve. I was only offering a suggestion on ways that might be accomplished.
My gut feel is that the learning curve is never really going to be reduced that much. (Not that more learning focused documentation wouldn't help.) These tools (FreeCAD, Fusion, SW, etc.) have a lot to learn. And, in many cases, those attempting to learn have no experience with other CAD software and/or no real background in design.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
bruce
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by bruce »

Have you read this section of this page: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Part_and_Pa ... Comparison. (Note: it probably didn't exist when you were learning...)
Nope, I started around the 0.15/0.16 mark and I don't recall seeing that documentation. Thank you for providing the link.

I agree that there are limits to how simple and intuitive you can make this software. Certainly, object modelling is a complicated subject, and it will likely never be 'easy', but it can always be easier. The law of diminishing returns will dictate at what point additional effort in the structure of the program is outweighed by the user being well versed with the software.

Going back to the initial point of this post: should I open a bug for the issue that I've identified?
drmacro
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by drmacro »

bruce wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:36 pm ...
Going back to the initial point of this post: should I open a bug for the issue that I've identified?
I'd say yes.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
chrisb
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by chrisb »

drmacro wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:47 pm I'd say yes.
+1
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bruce
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by bruce »

I've created issue #4767 and placed a link to it in the original post as well.

Thank you all for your input on this.
freedman
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by freedman »

FreeCAD started with Part, then some programmers decided to give the tree and model more structure with PartDesign. In doing this they had to draw a line at what was do-able at the time. I think someday PartDesign will have all the power of Part but not currently, after-all FreeCAD isn't finished yet.
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Re: Padding/pocketing sub shapebinders on not the Z axis doesn't work

Post by freedman »

I just did a test and got really good results. I added the "Draft" clone (sheep) icon to my PartDesign toolbar. I then took the sketch (vent_sk) and Draft cloned it into SlIDE_IN, I then drag the clone into the Body and do a pocket, works great! Fully parametric.
This is nice, the tree stays simple because there is no additional shapebinder. It appears as long as it's a 2D (like a sketch) no basefeature is needed.

I hope this helps developers solve the issues in PartDesign. Obviously Draft clone is better in some way at storing the working placement. Maybe we can get a new PartDesign clone feature.

Also, it looks like if you want to use a shapebinder on a sketch the standard shapebinder should be used so you can select geometry.

The Draft clone is 2D as stated in the clone name. If you change the Z location of the original sketch the clone does not change at all, it's only the 2D representation that changes the clone. I kind of like that in a way.
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