Possible New FreeCAD Logo

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sliptonic
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by sliptonic »

pachiburke wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:30 am
I think that everyone has started opensource contributions with something that is "obvious" or simple, as one of the first barriers is knowing the contribution process so, in a sense, this kind of submissions are expected. Hasn't everybody started contributing by submitting doc patches, fixing trivial typos or small bugs? Isn't this about scratching an itch?

Also, as a software that is used by some design oriented people it's also natural that they try to contribute to those aspects that they know better and have more skills. In that sense, designing a logo and creating icons or improving the UX of a dialog are very different kind of tasks.

Furthermore, I would find concerning for the future of the FreeCAD project that contributions to docs, community building or artwork were considered second class, and dismissed because they are just not code.
Thanks for a very good reply. There's a tendency to believe the best about people and their contributions and I think that's good. What you're saying echos what I believed about this phenomenon in the past. But I'm starting to think there's something else going on.

Let's take OP on this thread as a convenient example. This user has posted to the forum exactly one time - to submit a logo. Despite FreeCAD's notorious learning curve, they've never asked or answered a question. They've never shown something designed in FreeCAD. Just a logo suggestion.
If someone walked up to you on the street and offered suggestions on how you could dress better, you might be polite but you'd probably be a little offended, and rightly so. A suggestion like that from a friend matters because a friend has your best interests in mind. A random stranger, maybe not.

Maybe OP is a lurking long-time user who loves FreeCAD and is moved to make it better. Or maybe OP is a design student trying to pad out a portfolio and score bragging points. I have no way of knowing.

I want to believe the best about people and the contributions they offer but I'm coming to believe that many of these drive-by offerings are not from FreeCAD users at all. They're from designers seeking an easy win for their own portfolio.

If that is true (and I have no evidence that it is) then choosing a logo from a drive-by contributor is the worst thing we could do. Far from settling this issue, it will just invite more. If someone wants to work on the marquee then they should already have a thorough understanding of the community and the software. They should have trust and reputation built on hard work over time.
Are there design issues in the bug tracker? Does anyone who can craft icons but don't know the Path WB have an overview of what doesn't work in that dialog, what is missing? Is there a public request for help in that area?
bitacovir wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:22 am I am not familiar with Path WB. Can you start a thread about what need to be improve and where in this workbench? This way, I will see if I can help (right now I am doing some standardization tasks with icons).
I'll try to start a topic about Path UI improvement but my comments here were about the phenomenon of unsolicited logo suggestions. Like I said above, there are many many places in FreeCAD where good design skills are welcome.
Petrikas wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 am A vote needs to happen, one way or another, otherwise, nothing is going to change, ever.
We make progress every day on this software without taking a vote. Quality work generally stands on its own. But if you want to make big changes in the code or profound changes to our image you better have a long history of demonstrated commitment.

I've seen the work you've been doing on the UI in your other thread so I know you understand how good design takes hard work. Do you really want to trust something as important as our logo to a vote? Do you want to give that kind of honor to someone who may never contribute again?

I don't know anyone among the long-time contributors who doesn't care deeply about design. I understand how hard good design is and how important it is. That's why I want to see contributors roll up their sleeves and do something else before they presume to redefine our image.
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Petrikas
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by Petrikas »

sliptonic wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 pm We make progress every day on this software without taking a vote. Quality work generally stands on its own. But if you want to make big changes in the code or profound changes to our image you better have a long history of demonstrated commitment.

I've seen the work you've been doing on the UI in your other thread so I know you understand how good design takes hard work. Do you really want to trust something as important as our logo to a vote? Do you want to give that kind of honor to someone who may never contribute again?

I don't know anyone among the long-time contributors who doesn't care deeply about design. I understand how hard good design is and how important it is. That's why I want to see contributors roll up their sleeves and do something else before they presume to redefine our image.
There's no reason to vote on objective things. Most of the development is.
A logo is subjective.

The quality of design work is not related to history of commitment. It's either good design work, or it isn't.

Regarding honour - I could not care less about that. I want a logo that isn't riddled with rudimentary design errors and mistakes. I would even be down to crowdsourcing a reputable graphics designer to do it.

The logo design thread has been open for what, 3 years now? Logos are updated regularly. Even the biggest, oldest companies update their logos often, to keep up with the times.

FreeCAD is software, there's no legacy, there's no 'worthiness', quality of input isn't related to how old your profile on the forum is. We can either do something to improve its image, or we can keep the amateur hour ticking, saying that we haven't found a worthy alternative yet (of which there are plenty)
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pachiburke
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by pachiburke »

sliptonic wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 pm Maybe OP is a lurking long-time user who loves FreeCAD and is moved to make it better. Or maybe OP is a design student trying to pad out a portfolio and score bragging points. I have no way of knowing.

I want to believe the best about people and the contributions they offer but I'm coming to believe that many of these drive-by offerings are not from FreeCAD users at all. They're from designers seeking an easy win for their own portfolio.

If that is true (and I have no evidence that it is) then choosing a logo from a drive-by contributor is the worst thing we could do. Far from settling this issue, it will just invite more. If someone wants to work on the marquee then they should already have a thorough understanding of the community and the software. They should have trust and reputation built on hard work over time.
Hey! That's the kind of problems that in some way every project woul like to have! Designers wanting to improve their portfolio sending professional artwork, programmers sending patches because they want to learn new languages and programming tools and also becase that improves their portfolio (contributions to OS projects are something you can show now as a plus in your CV), UX engineers coming to improve their skills and also gain visibility, etc. Many will just find rewarding being able to contribute what they know or some of their time.

That doesn't mean that managing this flow of contributions is easy and I kind of feel why you are worried. But this will probably worsen as FreeCAD is getting so nice that many professional users can start considering it a viable option for them and the project is more popular.

Anyway, thanks to all contributors that spend their time on improving FreeCAD!
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sliptonic
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

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Petrikas wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:25 pm
There's no reason to vote on objective things. Most of the development is.
A logo is subjective.
On the user-facing parts of the software, it is not very objective. UI/UX is enormously complicated and often extremely subjective.
That's why I have such a high value for good design.
The quality of design work is not related to history of commitment. It's either good design work, or it isn't.
I agree. And judging good design work is also challenging. That's why I don't like leaving it to a vote. A history of commitment/contribution doesn't imply or guarantee good design but it implies that the designer has taken the time to thoroughly understand the context that they're designing for.
Regarding honour - I could not care less about that. I want a logo that isn't riddled with rudimentary design errors and mistakes. I would even be down to crowdsourcing a reputable graphics designer to do it.
I'm not opposed to paying for a professional logo. It means we somehow have to choose a professional firm which is just a recursive example of the same problem.
The logo design thread has been open for what, 3 years now? Logos are updated regularly. Even the biggest, oldest companies update their logos often, to keep up with the times.
So what? Nobody ever said FOSS software was fast. Who cares if it takes three years or five? It's done when it's done. We're not a company. We have no quarterly deadlines. We don't answer to customer.
FreeCAD is software, there's no legacy, there's no 'worthiness', quality of input isn't related to how old your profile on the forum is. We can either do something to improve its image, or we can keep the amateur hour ticking, saying that we haven't found a worthy alternative yet (of which there are plenty)
FreeCAD is more than the software. There's a community around that software. There are individuals who are building their careers on top of it. You're right that contributions to the source code are not based on 'worthiness' but contributions to the community are absolutely based on history, merit, and commitment. We don't invite first-time posters to be moderators on the forum. We don't give merge authority to first time code contributors.
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by Petrikas »

sliptonic wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:02 pm
Our views do not align at all. And I'm not going to respond to "so what?" questions and I'm not going to defend people who share their work just so they can be called egoistic and 'potentially' with a hidden agenda to somehow become rich and famous by suggesting an Icon. It's all utter nonsense.

It's an icon / logo we're talking about, not a complete overhaul of FreeCAD from the ground up. It doesn't need time, and the designer does not need to connect with the "inner chakras of FreeCAD" to design a good logo.

I can see that you're one of the core developers, and it really frightens me that this is the path FreeCAD is going to continue on going.

I think I will not be able to contribute any further to this cause, not when the general consensus is "we're fine as we are, leave us alone". I just don't waste my time (typing and posting) and others' time (reading and responding to my blabbering).

I think I cannot help when help is this aggressively rejected or dismissed.

I'll show myself out.
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chrisb
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by chrisb »

Petrikas wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:58 pm I think I cannot help when help is this aggressively rejected or dismissed.
I see that this discussion became indeed more and more agressive, but I don't see that sliptonic started this. It seems rather to me that you felt offended (where I couldn't see the reason) and reacted then yourself more and more agressive.
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by Kunda1 »

Locking this topic for a bit so we can regroup and focus up.
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Re: Possible New FreeCAD Logo

Post by chrisb »

Kunda1 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:43 pm Locking this topic for a bit so we can regroup and focus up.
Isn't that a bit premature?
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