FreeCAD UI Bible?

A forum for research and development of the user interface of FreeCAD
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Bance
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by Bance »

Not able to influence any implementers then?
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PedjaS
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by PedjaS »

ChrisWesley wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:22 am Hey guys, I was referred here by Kunda1 in https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 56#p496656.

I would like to contribute to the creation and adoption of a "UI Bible". That would be a set of guidelines which FreeCAD developers make and maintain and follow, which lead to a much easier FreeeCAD learning curve, greatly increased FreeCAD productivity through a task-directed UI, and global adoption of FreeCAD because of these attributes.

Please read that thread then let me know what you think about the proposal here.

Thanks
Chris
Chriss, you are right and not the first suggesting that user experience in FreeCAD should be improved.

Problem is, everyone who mentions that user experience in FreeCAD is not good is immediately etiquetted as dumb, ignorant and lazy to read wiki.

They are hard code programmers. They can and they do create powerful magic in FreeCAD functionality, but they do not understand needs of user experience. When you speak about user interface they think you are speaking about programming. Its like expecting all FreeCAD users are programmers that have years of knowledge and experience using various engines included in FreeCAD code.

I believe it is worth trying. FreeCAD is so great in functionality that it deserves all efforts to make it better in user experience too.
chrisb
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by chrisb »

PedjaS wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:56 pm Problem is, everyone who mentions that user experience in FreeCAD is not good is immediately etiquetted as dumb, ignorant and lazy to read wiki.
That's not fair! And it is wrong! As a reference I may direct you to this post: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 56#p496866 .

The problem is, that you are only talking and talking about what you can do, but it isn't done. This topic is already on its second page, and I don't see a single proposal yet. You talk about "dumb, ignorant and lazy". I am far from accusing you to be any of these, but even a dumb user could install and use a tool for creating a gui template. Now imagine what a smart, dedicated and hardworking user could do.

When I was young and we were playing cowboys and indians, everyone wanted to be an indian. An indian chief! And that's what we see here: many chiefs around, but no indian. I would like to see more cowboys and indians around - as long as they don't shoot each other.
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PrzemoF
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by PrzemoF »

PedjaS wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:56 pm [..]
Problem is, everyone who mentions that user experience in FreeCAD is not good is immediately etiquetted as dumb, ignorant and lazy to read wiki.
[..]
That's a serious accusation. Can you support it with examples please?

FreeCAD UI is inconsistent and for me it looks like this:
tools-1.resized.jpg
tools-1.resized.jpg (157.04 KiB) Viewed 2190 times
It's a great tools box, but you need to know what is where and how to use it.

When we're at 1.0 it will be this: :D
tool-2.resized.jpg
tool-2.resized.jpg (87.7 KiB) Viewed 2190 times
I have some ideas how to start going towards the perfect UI, but ideas are cheap and I don't have anything to answer "show me the code".

P.S. List of selection methods and functions using them would be a good start...
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onekk
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by onekk »

FreeCAD, is not resembling the first image, nor the second image.

It is a mix of the two, you have to put in the image an old shed with some tools rusted and seldom used.

Some WorkBench are "old and deprecated" but are keep as they are used in the past and developers won't break a decent level of retrocompatibility.

But:

- User are not reading the wiki,
- many user come here and criticize, "i was accustomed to do things in this way and want that FreeCAD is working in this way, other behaviour are stupid an counter intuitive"
- and many other things like the two above.

As my frequentation of the forum is not very aged, but also not too recent, i could say that in the near past many user for some reason (I suppose the most compelling is that many CAD tend to be made "pay per use software") want to "migrate" from XXXCAD to FreeCAD and won't "read the manual" or change habits.

Almost every day, the few people that are trying to help users are confronted with people that don't catch some "basic rules":
- put the output of the help window "copy to clipboard" button in the post to show the helper the relevant information about FreeCAD version and OS used.
- Listen to advices, today I'm struggling with a new user that want to learn how to do thing with "FreeCAD scripting", but insist on reporting problems without giving at least some "copy an paste" in "code tag" the error, when asked to follow a wiki, it became clear that he his a beginner, as he is mere copying and pasting code from different places and pretend that different "programming styles" will match "automagically".

I have a strange impression that the raise of complaints of "new users" that say "FreeCAD is crap" are peoples that make money on other CAD software or simply "haters".

Why if you want learn a new software you "HAVE" to take in account a "learning curve" and to smooth the curve there is only on way, "read the manual, ask to experts or skilled users and FOLLOW the advice they tell you", this is not what is happening today and in the last weeks.

Too many users that have signed to the forum are complaining and doing "Feature Request" and "Bug report" for thing that are "working perfectly for years" and have only to be "polished a little".

Said so dears Sirs, I wish you my Best Regards

Carlo D.
GitHub page: https://github.com/onekk/freecad-doc.
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ChrisWesley
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by ChrisWesley »

Bance wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:33 pm Not able to influence any implementers then?
Are you asking for information? If so - please read the thread to find it, and if not - then what is the purpose of your post?
ChrisWesley
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by ChrisWesley »

PedjaS wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:56 pm
Chriss, you are right and not the first suggesting that user experience in FreeCAD should be improved.

Problem is, everyone who mentions that user experience in FreeCAD is not good is immediately etiquetted as dumb, ignorant and lazy to read wiki.

They are hard code programmers. They can and they do create powerful magic in FreeCAD functionality, but they do not understand needs of user experience. When you speak about user interface they think you are speaking about programming. Its like expecting all FreeCAD users are programmers that have years of knowledge and experience using various engines included in FreeCAD code.

I believe it is worth trying. FreeCAD is so great in functionality that it deserves all efforts to make it better in user experience too.
Thanks for your support PedjaS
ChrisWesley
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by ChrisWesley »

chrisb wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:49 am ... This topic is already on its second page, and I don't see a single proposal yet.
I proposed we open this thread to discuss making a UI Bible
I proposed that I take care of creating and managing it, through consultastion on this thread and in other ways
I proposed that we consolidate a project vision for FreeCAD
I proposed several strategies by which FreeCAD impleemntors could use a UI Bible to direct or at least influence their code writing
ChrisWesley
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by ChrisWesley »

onekk wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:57 am
But:
- User are not reading the wiki,
- many user come here and criticize, "i was accustomed to do things in this way and want that FreeCAD is working in this way, other behaviour are stupid an counter intuitive"
...
... want to "migrate" from XXXCAD to FreeCAD and won't "read the manual" or change habits.
...Why if you want learn a new software you "HAVE" to take in account a "learning curve" and to smooth the curve there is only on way, "read the manual, ask to experts or skilled users and FOLLOW the advice they tell you", this is not what is happening today and in the last weeks.
Carlo D.
Hey Carlo, I understand your viewpoint and your frustration. But ALMOST NO ONE will read the damned Wiki.
People are task oriented - not lerning oriented. They want to job done.
The UI challenge is to empower them from day-1 ignorance.
Why bother? Why pander to idle ignorant people?

Good question. The answers are:

1. Because we're all idle ignorant people.
2. Because doing that will give you global dominance

Did you read your smaartphone manual? How much of Android so you know?
And how many great features will you NEVER KNOW ABOUT becuase you can't be arsed to read it?
I am in that camp, and I do not know a single perosn who is not. They blunder on negotiating around annoyances which an hour in the manual could remove permanently.

But Android is also a UI nightmare.

My whole thing is putting what people would get fgrom the Wiki if they read it - IN THE UI.
I don't mewan the acres of texzt, I mean the knowledge - embodied in different forms, in the UI.

The UI can prevent people doing the wrong things, and guide them into doing the right things.
It can conduct micro-surveys ("What are you trying to do now - please select an option") and provice task-oriented guidance
It can provide links straight to useful commands.
It can [rpvide links (as a last resort) to the Wiki/usewr guide).
The UI can honour global UI conventions which have grown up over decades:
- Cntrl/+ & - should increase & decrease font font size.
- Right click should bring up a context menu
- Cntrl/C & V should copy & paste
- ESC should exit up a level
- ALT should actuvat the command menus
- etc.

A good UI is not just some exposed API hooks into the internal raw functionality.
It is a thing in its own right, which carries the task uniting the abilities of the program with the goals of its user.
It is not about solving spacial equations or mapping planes - it is about understanding people and their foibles.

UIs could be DESIGNED not ad hoc'd.
Developes could WATCH USERS USING and learn from it
Lessons learned could be consolidate into the group so that expertise is grown in the FreeCAD project and embodied in the guides - not grown in individuals who come and go.

ANY user guide is a very poor second ot a good UI.
NO TASK is so complex that only a few day's reading will prepare you for it.
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Roy_043
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Re: FreeCAD UI Bible?

Post by Roy_043 »

FreeCAD indeed is relatively complex. I am not saying the UI cannot be improved. F.e. the UI sometimes lacks consistency, within the same workbench and also across workbenches. But putting all information in the UI will be impossible. IMO you should forget about that.
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