Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

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quiret
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Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by quiret »

Watch this tutorial/demonstration with great care. It contains advanced modelling techniques that are useful for precise parametric modelling. If you are an absolute beginner you may want to prep yourself before watching.

phpBB [video]


Resources:
- https://green-candy.osdn.jp/external/fo ... sure.FCStd
- https://green-candy.osdn.jp/external/fo ... dadv.FCStd
- https://green-candy.osdn.jp/external/fo ... mbed.FCStd
- https://green-candy.osdn.jp/external/fo ... head.FCStd

Relevant links for research:
- https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?t=53015 (idea for the dynamic surface projection)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCY5IrWrHrU (another tutorial)
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=255ohvhEU9E (another tutorial)
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by chrisb »

I admit that I haven't watched the whole video, because I didn't want to spend more time after nearly 7 minutes for several reasons, at least one of them rather personally biased.

1) This is just a personal view, but I think a good video should speek for itself and doesn't need blatant advertising such as a promise to show until now unseen things (0:30).

2) You should follow the guidelines given in the video subforum. We often see help requests about videos based on an utterly outdated FreeCAD version. Thus you should show your FreeCAD infos in the video.

3) Keep your wording proper and use the well established FreeCAD notions, so a ShapeBinder is not what we call a feature. I understand that you use it sometimes in a more general way, but that's not helpful here.

4) The structure of at least some models is wrong. This is especially surprising as I have the very strong feeling that you can avoid such issues by proper usage of - tadaaa! - (Sub)ShapeBinders. Make yourself familiar with how to combine PartDesign with other workbenches and until you have fully understood what you are doing, I recommend to stick either to PartDesign or to Part and friends.
Look at the warnings, they are meaningful.

5) Concerning the SubShapeBinder: it can well reference parts of some other objects (unlike your statement at 6:25).

Furthermore, I understood from your other forum posts that you wanted to create an excellent video on ShapeBinders. Then you should consider to cut the parts where you seem yourself to not knowing reliably where the things are, which you are talking about (2:00).
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by bambuko »

Perhaps concentrate on learning before you start teaching... :lol:
YT is full of FreeCAD videos - very few are any good :roll:
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by quiret »

chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm I admit that I haven't watched the whole video, because I didn't want to spend more time after nearly 7 minutes for several reasons, at least one of them rather personally biased.
Thank you for the time that you took reviewing my video. Your insight means a lot to me since you are an experienced person.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 1) This is just a personal view, but I think a good video should speek for itself and doesn't need blatant advertising such as a promise to show until now unseen things (0:30).
I see clearly, moving on.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 2) You should follow the guidelines given in the video subforum. We often see help requests about videos based on an utterly outdated FreeCAD version. Thus you should show your FreeCAD infos in the video.
I thought that the 0.20 logo at the start of the video would be enough. But the version is the Windows 0.20 official release build. I will make sure to show more clear version information the next time.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 3) Keep your wording proper and use the well established FreeCAD notions, so a ShapeBinder is not what we call a feature. I understand that you use it sometimes in a more general way, but that's not helpful here.
I acknowledge that I have not read the Glossary yet. The word "feature" was used in a general way when talking about programs, comparing CAD softwares broadly and identifying what a program is capable of. When speaking of Part Design WB "Feature" I would explicitly note so. But I can see how using that word can be confusing for people who are used to hearing it explicitly for the Part Design WB. I will keep that in mind, thanks.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 4) The structure of at least some models is wrong. This is especially surprising as I have the very strong feeling that you can avoid such issues by proper usage of - tadaaa! - (Sub)ShapeBinders. Make yourself familiar with how to combine PartDesign with other workbenches and until you have fully understood what you are doing, I recommend to stick either to PartDesign or to Part and friends.
Look at the warnings, they are meaningful.
I disagree that dependencies between models are considered "wrong". I am sorry but this is one point I do not budge on. Each FreeCAD document is a dependency graph and it should not matter how I put my connections because the software will always calculate the components in proper dependency order. If you cannot get your head around how dependency graphs work then you should indeed avoid any of those warning messages. I - as a software developer - am very well aware of the risks. I am deeply sorry if my procedures do not match the generally recommended FreeCAD vision in this aspect. My workflow is all about efficiency.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 5) Concerning the SubShapeBinder: it can well reference parts of some other objects (unlike your statement at 6:25).
From the UI you cannot drag edges or vertices onto Sub-Object Shape Binders. Thus my statement stays correct. If you mean that you can create a regular Shape Binder with partial geometrical selection and put it into the green one, then that is another story. Are you referring to something different that I have missed?
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm Furthermore, I understood from your other forum posts that you wanted to create an excellent video on ShapeBinders. Then you should consider to cut the parts where you seem yourself to not knowing reliably where the things are, which you are talking about (2:00).
You have a great observational skill. Once again sorry for this display that can be considered unprofessional. The video was made as an inspiration and it took me great effort to get that much information into it. I ask you to forgive the blatant hiccups and just look at the information presented.
bambuko wrote: Perhaps concentrate on learning before you start teaching... :lol:
YT is full of FreeCAD videos - very few are any good :roll:
I think I know the software well enough to use it professionally. But thank you very much. Your perception of my skill in FreeCAD may very well be wrong. It does not matter how skilled you are in the software if you have the mathematical knowledge that I have.

Do not get me wrong. I do not claim that this video is of great quality overall. But new information deserves to be spread, especially if it can be useful.
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by user1234 »

Change the wall thickness only 0.01mm or recompute the file, it fails immediately, on multiple spots, never saw something before in one model. When i look on the dependencies, ..... , i will say nothing. The corners are not continuous. Sorry but the model is ...... , i will say nothing. But one i will say, it is very far from professional.
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by chrisb »

quiret wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:38 pm
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 4) The structure of at least some models is wrong. This is especially surprising as I have the very strong feeling that you can avoid such issues by proper usage of - tadaaa! - (Sub)ShapeBinders. Make yourself familiar with how to combine PartDesign with other workbenches and until you have fully understood what you are doing, I recommend to stick either to PartDesign or to Part and friends.
Look at the warnings, they are meaningful.
I disagree that dependencies between models are considered "wrong". I am sorry but this is one point I do not budge on. The FreeCAD project is a dependency graph and it should not matter how I put my connections because the software will always calculate the components in proper dependency order. If you cannot get your head around how dependency graphs work then you should indeed avoid any of those warning messages. I - as a software developer - am very well aware of the risks.
I'm sad to say, but I doubt that you are really aware of the risks. Are you aware of the models we have seen here where models with such warnings lead to errors in later steps? A FreeCAD model is more than just a dependency graph
I am deeply sorry if my procedures do not match the generally recommended FreeCAD vision in this aspect. My workflow is all about efficiency.
In terms of efficiency I am rather looking on the long run. For me it is not at all efficient to search for errors in a model which is broken for seemingly unknown reasons. Yes, creating stable models takes in the first place longer than doing it quick and dirty, but you get the time back on later changes.

Of course you can model however you want, what pleases you, what is convenient. But then I must be allowed to not recommend to use this video for learning FreeCAD.
chrisb wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:34 pm 5) Concerning the SubShapeBinder: it can well reference parts of some other objects (unlike your statement at 6:25).
From the UI you cannot drag edges or vertices onto Sub-Object Shape Binders. Thus my statement stays correct. If you mean that you can create a regular Shape Binder with partial geometrical selection and put it into the green one, then that is another story. Are you referring to something different that I have missed?
Indeed, and your statement is neither correct, nor is your way necessarily efficient. It shows that you are yourself still in the learning phase - which is of course correct! - but providing your knowledge in a video seems a bit premature.

Select an edge, create a SubShapeBinder. (I would rate that as efficient :) .)
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by quiret »

user1234 wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:05 pm Change the wall thickness only 0.01mm or recompute the file, it fails immediately, on multiple spots, never saw something before in one model. When i look on the dependencies, ..... , i will say nothing. The corners are not continuous. Sorry but the model is ...... , i will say nothing. But one i will say, it is very far from professional.
I have tried fixing the model but it seems that it is suffering from the topological naming problem "toponaming" because the internal names change each time. Sorry about that, I will have to wait for a future version of FreeCAD to address it.

To manually fix the file you need to adjust the attachments and selection-sets of the shape-binders. Maybe this can be of help!

Image
Image

I am waiting for a fix of this issue though. From other posts it sounds like it is unclear how the resolve is going to look like, potentially even removing the ability at all. Meh.
chrisb wrote: I'm sad to say, but I doubt that you are really aware of the risks. Are you aware of the models we have seen here where models with such warnings lead to errors in later steps? A FreeCAD model is more than just a dependency graph
I can totally understand that but I want to believe in the software to do a good job, not be hindered by the technical limitations of today's reality. By pure idea my workflow should work, and that is what counts for me. I will try different CAD software if it suits this better.
chrisb wrote: Indeed, and your statement is neither correct, nor is your way necessarily efficient. It shows that you are yourself still in the learning phase - which is of course correct! - but providing your knowledge in a video seems a bit premature.

Select an edge, create a SubShapeBinder. (I would rate that as efficient :) .)
Thank you for that clarification. I was not aware that that shape binder could indeed store an edge because the UI is - even acknowledged by renowned YouTube tutorial makers - complicated. I guess the Sub-Object Shape Binder can do all of the tasks of the regular one. If it is really meant this way, then I hope that the UI is improved to offer the same selection flexibility OR even greater than the blue one's.

The sub-object shape binder is awkward to demonstrate. For showing the shape binder in general I chose an appropriately small enough model to people so that they can understand and use it in the displayed way. That is why I left out the notion that the "SubShapeBinder" can include a single edge, vertex, etc.
Last edited by quiret on Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by chrisb »

quiret wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 am That is why I left out the notion that the "SubShapeBinder" can include a single edge, vertex, etc.
Well, you didn't leave it out, you said it is not possible.
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by user1234 »

quiret wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 am I have tried fixing the model but it seems that it is suffering from the topological naming problem "toponaming" because the internal names change each time. Sorry about that, I will have to wait for a future version of FreeCAD to address it.
It fails not about the TNP. If fails because of bad references (see dependency graph) and bad geometry (see errors) Also i am not sure (i do not look too deep in the graph), if there is a hidden circle reference. Even when you model it like that in a CAD program, that cost in a year more then people earn in a year, it will not work (i can say that it will fail even in CATIA when it is model like that).

Often i read from people they a new to FreeCAD, they write, it fails because of the TNP. That is often not true (like in your case) and a invalid advanced excuse.

Especially parametric enclose like that are >99% TNP save, without workarounds. You must have bad luck if you ran in the TNP like a enclose like that. Even with lids, fillets or chamfers (or b-spline corners) it should be TNP save (without workarounds). Where the TNP (often/sometimes) can fail, is freeform surfaces.

Also just saying in general, that references between parts (assembly constraints excluded) is often bad practice (if it is absolutely earmarked, then not). Why?

- When you need that part for an other project, you have to load the parts of the origin references too. And that is often undesirable and annoying.

- Because of the topological naming (not the TNP of FreeCAD!). References can change due the engineering process. So you have to recompute the to referenced part, even if is not necessary, to stay update. Even on different construction status (draft, released, change, ..... ) and baselines of the parts, it can have unexpected results.

There are may others, but this are the important ones. So when referencing, then often a dead reference (unlinked reference) is better.
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Re: Advanced (Sub-Object) Shape Binder Tutorial - The Power of Shape Binders! (26min)

Post by quiret »

user1234 wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:32 am
quiret wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:48 am I have tried fixing the model but it seems that it is suffering from the topological naming problem "toponaming" because the internal names change each time. Sorry about that, I will have to wait for a future version of FreeCAD to address it.
It fails not about the TNP. If fails because of bad references (see dependency graph) and bad geometry (see errors) Also i am not sure (i do not look too deep in the graph), if there is a hidden circle reference. Even when you model it like that in a CAD program, that cost in a year more then people earn in a year, it will not work (i can say that it will fail even in CATIA when it is model like that).
There are no circular references. I did model that case properly. The thing that is breaking is different from my assumption... I guess the thing I realized in this post?

The references break at of saving the FreeCAD file.
Even when you model it like that in a CAD program, that cost in a year more then people earn in a year, it will not work (i can say that it will fail even in CATIA when it is model like that).
I think that the initial cost does very well turn out in profits when reusability is concerned.
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