What is a "body"?

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bejant
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by bejant »

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:48 pm So with the 0.17 version, the workflow has decisively changed.
Yes.

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:48 pm So, if one plan to use massively sketches, chamfer, fillet, etc, then is better to start with "basic" solids provided by the Part Design workbench.
Yes.

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:48 pm @bejant:thanks
I like also your second approach made by using sketches from the beginning.
You're welcome - I'm more accustomed to starting with a Sketch.
oldmachine
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by oldmachine »

I suspect folks that try making solid models in FreeCAD, using the different approaches often mentioned at CAD sites and their own experience, soon realize there are many ways to accomplish the result.

Many of the approaches are useful and can be further used down the modeling Tree (so to speak). But, not all - some are useful for only a limited follow-on usages.

Determining which approach (Workbench/etc) to use comes from experience of ‘doing it’ and solving the problems posed.

You can mix and use some things/tools from multiple workbenches but, not all… Trial and Error.

I most always prefer to use PartDesign but, sometimes it’s necessary to use another, such as Part.

Good example:
A missing tool in FreeCAD is the ‘Offset’ tool in SolidWorks - I use it often.
The Part wb has an ‘Offset’ tool but, it’s not like the one SolidWorks and it’s use (for me) requires some monkeying around, as seen the example below and there is no Offset in PartDesign:

1) In PartDesign, A Pad feature was created
2) In Part, the Offset tool used the Sketch from the Pad in PartDesign
3) In Part, the Offset is Extruded (cannot use it to extrude in PartDesign)
4) In Part, a Boolean Cut was made from the Pad in PartDesign and the Extrude in Part.

You can see all the visible features and the result.

I could not have done this without having spent time figuring out the ‘Why and Wherefore’ of it not working (and perhaps a few remembered tips from others).

I learned something just yesterday from NormandC regarding reusing a previous sketch (in PartDesign) for another feature without Duplicating it - I just selected the sketch from a Pad and used it for another Pad - simple! Thanks, NormondC :D

Of course, it can be model in one Fell Swoop having two circles in one sketch...
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Giulio Buccini
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by Giulio Buccini »

Yeah, oldmachines. You got the point: there are many way to achieve the same result. The drawback with Freecad is that if you start with the wrong initial step then you go in troubles.
In my case, I started with the Part Workbench and I was stuck after two minutes. Transforming a cube into an active body (to draw a sketch on top of it) was a pain the ass. :D

This is what I meant about over-engineered software: they can lead the user in confusion and force him to do counter-intuitive actions.
In the past I've produced a lot of over-engineered software. After direct interviews with final users (mainly doctors working in hospitals) I've soon realized that almost all of them was not using some features just because they was too complicated and/or requiring a technical background that they have no time at all to acquire.

At the moment, in Freecad there are 3 ways (and 3 different commands) to draw a cube. I think that this is overloading the brain of many users (me included :D ).
For example, in our company (like in many software houses today) we have a "usability tester" (see here).
When I was young I was laughing about this role, but now I've discovered that "usability" is the key-term for the success of a software.

Freecad is a fantastic piece of software, but at the moment requires too much effort to the end-user to fully exploit his potential. Some details behind the scene should be hidden to the user.

Honestly speaking, the way I've learnt using Freecad is by following dozens and dozens of youtube videos. The problem is that many of them are now outdated. :(


venn_usability.png
venn_usability.png (35.46 KiB) Viewed 1341 times
source: https://blog.rocketsoftware.com/2014/11 ... yWASM1fgXc
chrisb
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by chrisb »

Came home late, read this discussion, thought it should be moved to Open discussion, then it turned to something suiting Help forum. Now it turned back to open discussion, so I will move it there and ask Giulio to post help questions to the Help subforum.
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chrisb
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by chrisb »

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:14 pm Image
I don't agree with this picture. It is on of those marketing gags wich are always or never really valid.
  1. If it is for more then just hobby modeling "satisfying" is the wrong term. In my view "effective" would be the better term, because the question is, if the result is what you want.
  2. "Intuitive" has to be discussed. I like it, if software is intuitive, but it is necessary only if in the target group are completely uneducated people. FreeCAD is far beyond a simple program like paint for which you don't need to know much more than how to call it. Since 3D modeling is inherently difficult in itself it is probably impossible to learn it just by having some intuitive software.
    I am all for improved usability, I would appreciate a single way to create a cube, but it won't bring more users.
  3. "Efficiency" again depends on the target group. If it is used in a professional environment this is extremely important. In other circumstances it might have less or no importance.
I have made some comments in another post which fit here as well.

Finally let me point out, that you have to see the whole package: FreeCAD software + documentation and tutorials in the wiki + forum. This forum is very responsive forum for all kinds of further questions. I am sure that no professional system for which you pay 10.000+ has such a service that you can send them a poorly designed model and get an improved model back. which happens here quite often.
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by Giulio Buccini »

Hi Crisb

Intuitive does not mean "easy", as pointed by the article I linked below the image above.
It's just something like "by trying and using the software you can have roughly idea on how it works". Or, in other terms: the more you use it, the more you get acquainted with.

So the question is: what is the target user of Freecad?

I have suggested to give a try with Freecad to two little iron-workshops based in Italy. Both gave up after testing it: "too much complicated" (one of them bought a german CAD after a while).

About "uneducated people".
Yes, it's obvious that drawing a complicated shape is never an easy task. But it depends also on the tool you're using.
Maybe the solution to the drawing-problem that makes you stuck is just in front of your eyes, but you don't see it simply because you cannot "grab" it by using your common sens and/or experience.

Scenario: you want to draw a cube with a chamfer along one corner.
Workflow: You add your cube on the XYZ space, and after you select the "chamfer" tool.
Result: it won't work:
No active Body_444.jpg
No active Body_444.jpg (13.95 KiB) Viewed 1300 times
I think that Freecad can be used with profit by little workshops that doesn't have billions of dollar to invest for such kind of software. Yes, they are mostly uneducated people, so you have to deal with them.
Professional technical drawer will never use Freecad, in my opinion. They get a job and make money to feed their family (and pay the bills) by specializing themselves on well-know softwares like Solidworks and/or similar big products.

Just an idea on the fly (without thinking to it too much):
I would completely wipe out the Part Workbench and use a totally 100% sketch-based approach to 3D modelling. Yes, there are pros and cons to such idea, but in this way we would get a unified modelling way to do things.

P.S. I love Freecad anyway! ;)
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by Giulio Buccini »

Just for the sake of talking: how can be done a solid "border" around a 3D object like depicted in this SketchUp tutorial (minute 5:24)?

I'm trying to do the same at the base of a simple cube with no success... the 2D offset tool doesn't work as I expected. Any idea?
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bejant
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by bejant »

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:12 am Scenario: you want to draw a cube with a chamfer along one corner.
Workflow: You add your cube on the XYZ space, and after you select the "chamfer" tool.
Result: it won't work:
Try this work flow instead:
Open FreeCAD and do File > New or Ctrl + N.
Click the Part Design > Additive Cube icon:
Image
A new Body will be created, and it contains the Cube.
In the 3D view, select the edge you want to Chamfer.
Click the Chamfer tool:
Image

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:08 pm Just for the sake of talking: how can be done a solid "border" around a 3D object like depicted in this SketchUp tutorial (minute 5:24)?
(snip)
Any idea?
FreeCAD doesn't have a Follow Me tool, but the Part Design > Additive Pipe tool will work:
Image
The Sketch to be swept would be one rectangle and the path would be the outside edges on the bottom of the house. Some parts of the Sweep might have to be removed, for example if the edges of the path are uninterrupted and go through door openings.

https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/PartDesign_AdditivePipe

There are other ways to make those trim boards too, like a Sketch and Pad from the bottom up.
Giulio Buccini
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by Giulio Buccini »

Hi again bejant,
about chamfering: I know that way to do that. Mine was just an example about how a software can surprise an "uneducated" user. Doing something that should work by using the common sense reveals how much the software thinks different from humans. This is a classic example where users should think like the software, not viceversa.

About the "follow-me" tool I'm going to test your suggestion. Good idea!
Jee-Bee
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Re: What is a "body"?

Post by Jee-Bee »

Giulio Buccini wrote: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:26 pm about chamfering: I know that way to do that. Mine was just an example about how a software can surprise an "uneducated" user. Doing something that should work by using the common sense reveals how much the software thinks different from humans. This is a classic example where users should think like the software, not viceversa.
Common sense don't exist... In all cases a user expect something based on early experiences. In all cases a user learn how software work and based on that you expect something in other software. Even if the assumption is not correct.
I use Open office myself and number one reason i hear why not to use it is "It is tottally different" than MS office. They can't adapt to a slightly different layout even if they now what functions they need. stupid enough the problem exist less when swapping cars. basically and mercedes works the same as a lada :o
In my office we use CREO, Solid Works, Inventor. Sometimes i complain about CREO i don't something getting to work... 99% i do something wrong. I have to adapt to CREO.
From my experience i can say it impossible to just work with creo without knowledge.

Of course i know points that are missing. But i know also that there are a few points that are busy with programming. myself i can't program (in C++) I know a bit of python. And I can say that If i want a certain function that does a handfull of tasks i'm not able to implement all of it in a single function.
If you are a better programmer than me please dive into FreeCAD part design create new features. Show what possible is and a lot of people are happy FreeCAD becomes better and better!
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