Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

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vocx
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby vocx » Fri May 01, 2020 5:40 pm

fc_tofu wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:53 pm
...
IMO, the benefit of pre-1.0 versioning is that we can do drastic improvement without worrying to much about compatiability issues.
After entering post-1.0 era, changes have to be very cautious not breaking compatiabilities.
...
Yes, I agree.
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vocx
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby vocx » Fri May 01, 2020 5:43 pm

bernd wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:28 pm
you use any software at your own risk, even if you have paid for it!
Yes, but you will complain about it! Particularly in the European Union where regulations give consumers the power to complain a lot! If you paid thousands for something, you expect it to work, and the company does provide some support.
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TomB19
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby TomB19 » Sat May 02, 2020 3:38 am

I could care less about the version number of FreeCAD but I would like to make two comments.

1) FreeCAD pre-.19 is, by far, more stable than .18. I don't know how anyone got much done with .18, however, the current pre-release is quite viable.

2) I paid a few thousand dollars for AutoCAD for Windows, back in the late 90s. It wouldn't stay running long enough to be useful. They released enough patches to make it work adequately but it took many months and, even then, it was less stable than pre-.19 FreeCAD is today (and AutoCAD was a full release). Even today, AutoCAD crashes sometimes when I pull a document out of the library.

Thank you to all who have contributed.
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bernd
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby bernd » Sat May 02, 2020 5:47 am

I do not want 0.91 just because it is cool, but neverless it would be cool anyway!

I have written my reasons many times. I want 1.0 too. I use and have been using FreeCAD in productive environment for years. Furthermore I promote FreeCAD to other people. The most problematic about FreeCAD is its version. People who do not know about FreeCAD complain about a bad software just because of the version number. This has happen to me many times. Thus I would like to have 1.0 But since there is no agreement about 1.0 I try to find some solution which does fit for all. Thus 0.91. We still have 10 releases to 1.0 This means at current dev speed more than ten years of development.

Thus I vote for version 0.91.

If we release 0.20 and continue as we did I need to continue to tell people FreeCAD is no beta software for the rest of my live. I promise we will never reach 1.0 than
fc_tofu
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby fc_tofu » Sat May 02, 2020 12:14 pm

https://semver.org/

Semantic Versioning 2.0.0
...
Major version zero (0.y.z) is for initial development. Anything MAY change at any time. The public API SHOULD NOT be considered stable.

Version 1.0.0 defines the public API. The way in which the version number is incremented after this release is dependent on this public API and how it changes.

Patch version Z (x.y.Z | x > 0) MUST be incremented if only backwards compatible bug fixes are introduced. A bug fix is defined as an internal change that fixes incorrect behavior.

Minor version Y (x.Y.z | x > 0) MUST be incremented if new, backwards compatible functionality is introduced to the public API. It MUST be incremented if any public API functionality is marked as deprecated. It MAY be incremented if substantial new functionality or improvements are introduced within the private code. It MAY include patch level changes. Patch version MUST be reset to 0 when minor version is incremented.

Major version X (X.y.z | X > 0) MUST be incremented if any backwards incompatible changes are introduced to the public API. It MAY also include minor and patch level changes. Patch and minor version MUST be reset to 0 when major version is incremented.
...
This doc is long, but not too long compared to our discussion here.
I suggest FreeCAD's devs adopt this versioning policy, or make something similar to it. This could become conclusion of 1st step discussion.
And this is also a shortcut to 2nd step discussion, which is FreeCAD 1.0.0's milestone and schedule. Without such a mature template, we might continue this discussion repeatedly, endlessly or even fruitlessly, IMHO.
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sgrogan
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby sgrogan » Sat May 02, 2020 4:37 pm

fc_tofu wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:14 pm
This doc is long, but not too long compared to our discussion here.
Yea, I posted the same link 15 or so pages ago :geek:
vocx wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:38 pm
I want 0.20 because it's just the natural progression. We are still working on the project. When it is really solid, with no major changes (App Link, PartDesign, TechDraw, documentation, etc.), then we can think of moving to 1.0, and this transition will not be difficult.

Bernd wants 0.9x just because. It's a bigger number, it looks "better", it looks "cool". That can't be an argument anywhere.
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you didn't support a version jump because it was arbitrary?
The only consensus I see in the tread is that FreeCAD is closer to 1.0 than 0.1.
If there was a roadmap, I specifically don't say timeline, would your opinion change?
chrisb
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby chrisb » Sat May 02, 2020 11:24 pm

To put some oil into the fire: Backwards compatibility depends on things out of our reach, see https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45897. At the same time it shows, that even professional companies publish versions with only a minor number change, which are incompatible with the previous one.

1.0 now or later is not at all a discussion about facts, although everyone pretends it is. A manager basing his business plans on nothing more than a version number is nothing more than an idiot. But I see that the label "1.0" can be seen as a dooropener to be at least taken into account for further studies.
1.0 now or later is more a philosophical or personaly character type question. Society has - and needs! - different types of people, two extremes are e.g. the preservers, for whom the current state is almost the best and can be improved only in infinitesimal small steps - and on the other side the high flyers, always reaching for the next star.

In FreeCAD we have the same types, although not that extreme. If we follow all the arguments against 1.0 we will never get there. If we go for 1.0 instead of 0.20 we just do it.

And in both cases the world will still turn around and FreeCAD will evolve further.
Mark Szlazak
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby Mark Szlazak » Sun May 03, 2020 4:02 pm

I think after realthunders topological naming stuff gets put in with pre-0.20 then it can be released as 1.0 next year.
vocx
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby vocx » Mon May 04, 2020 4:55 pm

sgrogan wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:37 pm
...
If there was a roadmap, I specifically don't say timeline, would your opinion change?
Well, that's the whole point of this thread. If we have a clear roadmap, with verifiable milestones, with known problems that need to be addressed, and that can be addressed while keeping the stability of the program, with a checklist of things completed, etc. Then we are much closer to release 1.0. Until then, pushing for a 1.0 version is just based on feelings, which is a terrible way of making big decisions.

I am never asking for an arbitrary jump, but rather for a planned jump. If we are in 0.24, and at that point we make a roadmap, and we realize that everything that needs to be addressed is already taken care of and in good shape, then we can give it one more year of testing, and release 1.0 after 0.25. This is just an example, it doesn't mean it will go like this.

Again, people like chrisb and triplus think that I just want to push 1.0 indefinitely, and that is simply not true. The 1.0 version will come at some point (I mentioned in my original post that I see that in 5 years), but we need to make this decision in a planned way; you cannot make this decision when realthunder is still merging tons of features. They are good features, but they are untested by the majority, and may cause some instability (today the expression engine still doesn't autocomplete like before, the patch is pending). Let's just wait until the development slows down a bit, and we have a really stable product, then we can transition easily to 1.0.
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vocx
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Re: Discussion: FreeCAD is not ready for 1.0

Postby vocx » Mon May 04, 2020 5:06 pm

chrisb wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:24 pm
...
If we follow all the arguments against 1.0 we will never get there. ...
This is not true at all. Why do you keep repeating this? This is not true!

The version 1.0 will come, but we just need more time for different features to become stable. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Werner himself has said that the code merged by realthunder has several problems. He even made a personal checklist of things he wanted to solve before the release is done. If some things have fundamental problems, they have to be solved, there is no way around it.
wmayer wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:21 pm
...
With all the recent big merges there have been many slight or big regressions here and there and also the general code quality has suffered greatly which the PVS and Coverity scans clearly show.
wmayer wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:43 pm
On my desktop I have four DIN A4 pages full of smaller and bigger issues and some of them are serious design flaws that must be fixed before the next release. So, I will fix the issues in the order of their importance and then we can see where we are at the beginning of next year.
...
That's the whole point of this thread. If you can't program, and solve the problems yourself, calm down, ease your expectations a bit. If you can program, then what the hell are you waiting? Start helping out!
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