Definition of the notion "Crash"

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vanuan
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Definition of the notion "Crash"

Post by vanuan »

chrisb wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:56 pm We have seen some crashes here recently, but it seems to be certain hardware, not the application in general.
By "crashes" I also mean the errors appearing in the report view. How often do you see those?

chrisb wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:56 pm And what is a steep learning curve? FreeCAD has the power of a tool on which people make a living. You cannot seriously expect to click here and there and everything will be alright. That's not just the software, it's 3D modeling which is inherently difficult.
Of course, 3D modeling is difficult. It's the software job to make it easier. If 3D modeling was easy, we wouldn't need the software.

Which other tools did you try except FreeCAD? Can you really make a comparison?
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by chrisb »

vanuan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm By "crashes" I also mean the errors appearing in the report view.
You must be kidding to call this a crash. A crash is an irregular termination of the program.
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vanuan
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by vanuan »

chrisb wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:45 pm
vanuan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:05 pm By "crashes" I also mean the errors appearing in the report view.
You must be kidding to call this a crash. A crash is an irregular termination of the program.
I'm not kidding. By all the practical means any unhandled exception is a crash:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/cp ... ew=vs-2019

It's just that in Python, instead of calling sys.exit() we just ignore all the exceptions.
chrisb
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by chrisb »

vanuan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:52 pm I'm not kidding. By all the practical means any unhandled exception is a crash:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/cp ... ew=vs-2019
Perhaps it is not more than a big misunderstanding. The page you linked doesn't even contain the word "crash" while it shows the work "catch" in bold, which is used in programming in connection with exceptions. On the other hand wikipedia defines "In computing, a crash, or system crash, occurs when a computer program such as a software application or an operating system stops functioning properly and exits." which pretty well meets my view of a crash.
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vanuan
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by vanuan »

chrisb wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:21 pm Perhaps it is not more than a big misunderstanding. The page you linked doesn't even contain the word "crash" while it shows the work "catch" in bold, which is used in programming in connection with exceptions. On the other hand wikipedia defines "In computing, a crash, or system crash, occurs when a computer program such as a software application or an operating system stops functioning properly and exits." which pretty well meets my view of a crash.
Ok, what do you cal the situation where application stops functioning properly but doesn't exit? For example, websites do crash, but they don't have any concept of "exit"
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by chrisb »

vanuan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:23 pm Ok, what do you cal the situation where application stops functioning properly but doesn't exit? For example, websites do crash, but they don't have any concept of "exit"
That's an error. Things that show up in report view can indicate such errors, but often they indicate just an illegal state, but the software continues to work properly. Often these are caused by illegal user inputs, which other systems may just silently drop. That doesn't necessarily make FreeCAD more error prone. Concerning messages the situation was quite recently much improved, so that we see far less messages in report view.
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chrisb
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Re: Definition of the notion "Crash"

Post by chrisb »

I have split this topic from https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 7&start=20 because the posts were off topic.
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Re: News: Changes to AutoDesk Fusion 360 for Personal Use

Post by easyw-fc »

chrisb wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:32 pm
vanuan wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:23 pm Ok, what do you cal the situation where application stops functioning properly but doesn't exit? For example, websites do crash, but they don't have any concept of "exit"
That's an error. Things that show up in report view can indicate such errors, but often they indicate just an illegal state, but the software continues to work properly. Often these are caused by illegal user inputs, which other systems may just silently drop. That doesn't necessarily make FreeCAD more error prone. Concerning messages the situation was quite recently much improved, so that we see far less messages in report view.
I agree with @chrisb, moreover the error and warning messages are a great help for developers and also for users... they help devs in fixing some issue in internal or external workbenches or showing users if them are doing something wrong in modelling.
Commercial sw just drops all this information to let users ignore everything under the hood.
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Re: Definition of the notion "Crash"

Post by freedman »

There are certainly levels of exits.
I know when I start seeing errors (in report view) from doing repeated lofts or thin features that I need to tread carefully and save.

I see soft crashes where FreeCAD tells me to save my work and restart (in report view). Obviously something went wrong internally.

Kind of new to me in 0.19 is a total crash where the program just closes. That's definitely a crash and very noticeable when you run dual screens full of open windows, they all just close in a flash, I'm always surprised. :shock: This has always only occurred after a failed attempt of a complex feature.

I think the experienced user has the report view panel always there as a message board, that might be a little unfair to a new user but that's how the progam is structured currently. Report view is kind of a program health check as we work.
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Re: Definition of the notion "Crash"

Post by jmaustpc »

freedman wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:17 am Kind of new to me in 0.19 is a total crash where the program just closes. That's definitely a crash and very noticeable when you run dual screens full of open windows, they all just close in a flash, I'm always surprised. :shock: This has always only occurred after a failed attempt of a complex feature.
Yes that is a crash, whenever that happens please workout what you did to make it crash. try it again and see if its repeatable. If so definitely report it.

I almost never get a crash, but of course that does not mean there aren't any issues, just that I have not see it.

Of course as most here would know, it is not always FreeCAD's fault that a crash occurred, it can be how it was compiled or an issue with a third party library or system library etc. or configuration etc. or a packaging issue etc.
freedman wrote: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:17 am I think the experienced user has the report view panel always there as a message board, that might be a little unfair to a new user but that's how the progam is structured currently. Report view is kind of a program health check as we work.
Yes,
by default the error message flashes briefly in the bottom margin of the main FreeCAD QT window. Most new users miss that and it's much more convenient to use Report View. Report view's only real problem is that it uses up screen space.
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