[Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

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drmacro
Posts: 1986
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby drmacro » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:01 am

Jee-Bee wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:27 am
Stop doing this way @drmacro because you care less it don't mean it is stupid.
If bad to suboptimal workflow is fine to you thats not a problem. For others it is different and accapt that...
Yes. I see no need for this feature when what is available is adequate.

And I'm not arguing that it should never be added or that it is stupid. I am arguing it is not a top priority compared to other bugs or missing features.

Continually lamenting it's absence is not improving anything.

How about following the procedure that has been outlined by many people, many times?

File a feature request.
That is taking a positive action toward getting the feature.

Then go model stuff with the suboptimal work flow while you wait for it to be implemented.

And, that is how it is...those who find it different need to accept that. FreeCAD has 4 or 5 volunteer developers who work on it in their spare time.

Suboptimal or not, what you get in FreeCAD is really an amazing value.

Even if, it takes some extra thought, and effort, to constrain a sketch.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."

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chrisb
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby chrisb » Wed Sep 30, 2020 11:42 am

I think the point was here not the contents, but rather the tone of communication which, while I think is not dramatic yet, threatens to tip over.
I am not a big friend of canning every idea into a feature request. Instead I prefer to discuss things here, and create a tracker entry after finding some sort of consensus. I am all with drmacro concering the judgement of such a feature. If we consider a company in a commercial environment which should pay for the development, I hear the manager asking immediately how many dimensions are created per day, and how much the new version would speed things up.

On the other hand I don't like such manager decisions, because they don't take into account an important question in daily work: Is it fun? So if many people would like to see such a feature, it may well be worth a feature request. But much more than that I would like to see someone eagerly wanting this feature to "stop whining, start coding" as an old FreeCAD saying goes.

I claim: Everyone who can build more than a non trivial model in FreeCAD is able to program as well! The program languages used here use basically only a handful of constructs. The argument "I am so busy with other things", or "I am too old" doesn't count anymore as soon as it is accompanied by "but someone else should do it".

Beyond that: Contributing to such a project is immensly satisfactory!
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Jee-Bee
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby Jee-Bee » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:10 pm

I don't argue about what functions have priority and what don't have. I know FC have just a few parttime programmers with there own priorities.
I agree also that (almost) everybody should be able to programming.
My point here is that up front saying that everything works don't bring FC further too. If you want to come to a concesus uppon this point how would it be possible to come to a concesus in a more detailed level?
The usebility of dimensions is an item that comes back over and over again. I don't understand why we don't accept that FC can perform better on this point in the future.
I think(based on my daily work) that the sketcher is the place where during CADing the most time is spend. If you win in the sketcher 5% or 10% of your time...


My personal frustration is that in this kind of discussions have the tendency to turn to no (as example the FC 1.0 / FC is not ready for 1.0 discussion or the pad / pocket or single feature during 0.15 / 0.15 or so) and not to let's try it out.
If it is there you don't be forced to use it... But if it's there i for sure use it(I use now the distance because the usebility is better).
drmacro
Posts: 1986
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby drmacro » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:37 pm

Jee-Bee wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:10 pm
I don't argue about what functions have priority and what don't have. I know FC have just a few parttime programmers with there own priorities.
I agree also that (almost) everybody should be able to programming.
Some think FreeCAD is rudderless with a few programmers. I can't imagine what it would be like and what the regression count could be with hundreds.
;)
My point here is that up front saying that everything works don't bring FC further too.
I don't think anyone ever said everything works. Who would, when fillets have a 50-50 chance of working?

My point is there is an adequate tool, sub-optimal in some folks view, not necessarily to others, but serviceable.

And there are plenty of other tools and areas that aren't.
If you want to come to a concesus uppon this point how would it be possible to come to a concesus in a more detailed level?
The usebility of dimensions is an item that comes back over and over again. I don't understand why we don't accept that FC can perform better on this point in the future.
I think(based on my daily work) that the sketcher is the place where during CADing the most time is spend. If you win in the sketcher 5% or 10% of your time...
Let's be honest, you are never going to get complete consensus on any feature idea. But, these ideas need to be tracked so, put in a feature request.

I think 6+ forum pages is enough to get the idea of what is being imagined as functionality and enough for a dev, at some point, to take a stab at it.
And that some view this as making their life complete.

What further action can happen at this point?

If it is there you don't be forced to use it... But if it's there i for sure use it(I use now the distance because the usebility is better).
But, it's not there and not likely to be there for some period of time. (Some time after it is put in as a feature request, or someone takes it upon themselves to do it adhoc...)

So, is there anything that improve our "sub-optimal" situation? :?:

I'd say, a bit of thinking outside the box might help. :)

It appears that extra clicks on the toolbar are part of the issue. So, are there ways to improve what exists, that don't even need a developer? Or at least an improved workflow?

I'd proffer there is. And it is actually one of JOKO Engineering's favorite ways (and mine to actually) to drive FreeCAD: keyboard shortcuts. :idea:

Sure, sure, so old school, right? But, what else you doing with your other hand? 8-)

Here I provide and example of exploiting existing functionality to at least streamline a bit.

And, "look ma! no icons"... :P

https://github.com/macdroid53/MyShares/ ... /DimS.webm
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."

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abdullah
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby abdullah » Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:53 pm

jmaustpc wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:38 am
sundz wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:18 pm
Hi has anyone been working on a feature to just have a single dimension tool for the most common ones Horizontal, Vertical, Diagonal, Circular and Angles?

If not would it be difficult to implement?
For starters, why are you talking about dimensions? Once I opened your topic it became apparent that you are referring to "Sketcher Constraints". This topic has nothing to do with dimensions. Dimensions are something totally different, see Part WB dimensions for example.

As others have said they do different things, trying to make the code guess what someone wants is complex, confusing and very likely error and bug prone. It is also likely to be a total pain and slow down your work flow. They do different things, I don't understand what advantages such a thing would give other than even more user confusion and frustration. Obviously others may disagree. We have what we have and I am used to it, trying to copy a workflow from some other application just because they do it some way or another is not in itself a good idea.

I want to see the code ask the user to define what they want, I do not want code that tries to guess what I as a user want and maybe getting it correct sometimes. For an example of this imagine using auto correct on a stupid smart phone, I found that I had to go back and correct the auto correct back to what I had originally written so many times that it wasted far more time than it saved. I think the same principle applies in sketcher, if you want to constrain a section of geometry then I want to select the exact constraint style that I want and select the exact geometry that I want to apply it too without some stupid computer trying to guess for me.
Jee-Bee wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:54 am
What I meant with the same thing is that all three are a linear dimension (yes two are in a specific direction... but still linear)
They use different code/algorithm, the Horizontal and vertical constraints are far easier to calculate, the main developer in that area has stated that you should avoid using the distance constraint where other styles will produce the same result. These things matter more as the sketch/project becomes more complex.
ThanklessLiving wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:27 am
I think what is being requested here is behaviour similar to "Smart Dimension" in Solid Edge
trying to copy a workflow from some other application just because they do it some way or another is not in itself a good idea. Unless of course it is a good idea within the FreeCAD context of course.
Pauvres_honteux wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:14 am
Bad thing is it's programmed in C++ = stops anyone with only Python knowledge to progress this. And the vast majority in this fora seems to be Pythonistas.
That is not completely true. The two languages are very similar in terms of writing code, someone who is knowledgeable in one merely has to learn the few difference between them. Of course C++ is compiled and Python is mostly just interpreted but the actual code that you write is very similar in many ways.

The real problem is how complex the code is in this part of FreeCAD, rather than the language the code is written in. You have to be someone special (like
abdullah wrote:
for example) who can understand the code.

Of course users are entitled to ask/express their opinion and the developer is free to do whatever they like, but I would much rather a developer would spend their time creating new features (and bug fixes) that extend FreeCAD's functionality rather than just change the behaviour or appearance of something that already exists.
I have browsed over the thread. I have seen the video comparing some paid software with FreeCAD.

There is also a feature request on a similar topic:
https://tracker.freecadweb.org/view.php?id=1416

Yes. I have considered tackling this point. But lately time to code is simply non-existent.

The ideas I have considered in the past is to use as input selection, mouse position and possibly a iteration key such as the 'm' key when using polyline tool.

If nobody else implements it in the meantime, I may tackle it next year. This year I really want to work on other topics of the sketcher. Hopefully I will have some coding time at the end of this month and November.
chrisb
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Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby chrisb » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:25 pm

abdullah wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 5:53 pm
This year I really want to work on other topics of the sketcher. Hopefully I will have some coding time at the end of this month and November.
Welcome back! Let's hope you will find some time.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf deutsch, en français, en español.
Jee-Bee
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Location: Netherlands

Re: [Feature request] (Sketcher Constraints) A single Dimension tool for all types

Postby Jee-Bee » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:13 am

Thanks for your response