0.20.24612 looks like not running on win7 cause python 3.9

[GeneFC]

Let me know if I can help.

Thanks, but no need. I run both Windows 7 and Windows 10.

I find this planned obsolescence annoying, but that's the way the world works.

Windows "support" has usually caused more problems than it solved, so it is actually good that Microsoft support for Windows 7 has ended.

Gene

[looo]

So what would be the best dependency mix for windows. I can work on a occt7.5 python 3.8 0.19.1 version if this helps people to run freecad 0.19 on windows 7.

[freedman]

Is there a way to distribute the dll, I don't like to see development go backwards? If the dll is some unrequired thing can we fake out the fake. I wonder if it''s really looing for a specified entry point or is it just looking for a file.

[user1234]

Hello!

I find this planned obsolescence annoying, but that's the way the world works.

I am not a windows user, but in that case it is fair. You bought windows 7 one time and get very long security updates (a maintenance service), which are expensive and absolutely needed.

Greetings
user1234

[jmaustpc]

Win7 came out 12 years ago. By the way, look at Ubuntu's improvements over that same 12 years.

There are some special use cases where updating win7 to 10 or Linux would be problematic, like where it was used in a CNC lathe or embedded device (the embedded version is a special cut down version, at least the one in point of sale machines was).

There are no security updates available anymore from MS so using win7 connected to the Internet is obviously a really bad idea.

So for use as a standard desktop Internet connected computer Win7 is dead and encouraging anyone to still use it as such is just irresponsible.

I find this planned obsolescence annoying, but that's the way the world works.

I agree, whether or not you (or I) like this obsolescence or not is a whole separate conversation with good points on both sides. The point is it is here and what do we do about the situation that has been forced on us by others.

We have a similar issue with Ubuntu LTS support where we have repeatedly found that trying to support the oldest then supported LTS in the latest FreeCAD is extremely complex and in fact close to impossible. That is with opensource and only up to 5 years old. We had to give up on supporting 12.04 (or maybe it was 10.04, the problem then was lake of support for a C++ version in the compiler's, I did eventually get it to work but doing so was ridiculously complex and invasive and cause other problems with compatibility of other applications) and now 16.04 in the last few months before they were EOL.

So what would be the best dependency mix for windows. I can work on a occt7.5 python 3.8 0.19.1 version if this helps people to run freecad 0.19 on windows 7.

So I would argue that
1) doing so is irresponsible since it encourages people who don't know any better to keep using a desktop OS with no security updates.

But I feel less strongly about that than my next point.

2) I insist that FreeCAD not be held back for "normal users" just because of a few "corner cases" (many but not all, of which are unjustifiable) want to keep using an obsolete, unsupported OS. I very much doubt that MS will keep supporting Win7 for much longer with their dev tools.

So I would say, if you guys insist on still supporting Win7 and you are happy to spend your time doing so, then make a single one off special clearly labelled version of FreeCAD 0.19 for only Win7. But definitely do not try to offer the regular "master" snapshot releases etc. Make it very clear that this is a one off special version of FreeCAD to support an old "end of life" OS and defiantly not the standard or official FreeCAD.

It also needs to be clearly labelled as such in the "Help About" ... version data to make life less confusing for those of us trying to support users on the Help forums.

If you guys are interested, I could tell you a story of an extreme example of old hardware/software support that I did once, where a factory used an old 386? 20mb HDD green screen display machine to run one specific job with custom code in a very old spreadsheet application with a no longer supported file format running in DOS etc. I did get most of the data out but had to rewrite the spreadsheet formulas much to the delight of the factory owners.

Jim

[Zolko]

2) I insist that FreeCAD not be held back for "normal users" just because of a few "corner cases" (many but not all, of which are unjustifiable)

I very much find your patronising ways quite annoying. You throw your personal opinions as "facts" without a shadow of a proof about what you pretend to be:

Yes, I switched to py39 recently.

what does python 3.9 provide that is so much important for FreeCAD to have ? The burden of proof lies on those who require changes, it's not enough to simply want to latest-and-greatest shiny iThingy to be "modern". From what progress does python 3.8 hold FreeCAD back ?

Unless there is such a very good reason to use python 3.9, can we please revert to python 3.8 for all ? Or even 3.7, because current stable Debian (Buster) provides python 3.7 !

[looo]

what does python 3.9 provide that is so much important for FreeCAD to have ? The burden of proof lies on those who require changes, it's not enough to simply want to latest-and-greatest shiny iThingy to be "modern". From what progress does python 3.8 hold FreeCAD back ?

Ok, to be clear there are no big advantages for freecad. Maybe some python improvements, idk. But there are some maintaining advantages. Beeing on top of the dependencies is the easiest way to have a consistent dependency-tree at least this was what I learned in the past.

The problem with "old" dependencies is a increasing build matrix. If you look at the 0.19.1 builds provided via conda-forge you will see 9 builds. https://anaconda.org/conda-forge/freeca ... ion=0.19.1
Conda is designed to support a range of different builds to test them next to each other in virtual environments. It's nice to have these features, as different dependency mixtures can be tested. On the other side we cannot provide every dependency mix. So some sort of compromise must be made.

So why switching to py39 and occt7.5 after the 0.19 release?

In the past we did such a switch during the release and we saw different issues because of doing so. So it is never a good idea to switch dependencies before the release. (Also this year we were running into the same things because the libpack was updated during the release phase) After the release is done some kind of change is expected (as everyone has the option to stick to the 0.19 version). So in my mind it's a good idea to do the switch right now. For sure there are disadvantages/issues introduced by updating the dependencies. But we are used to this and normally we are able to reduce such issues.

Unless there is such a very good reason to use python 3.9, can we please revert to python 3.8 for all ? Or even 3.7, because current stable Debian (Buster) provides python 3.7 !

Not sure why debian buster is the reference here? I know the dependency hell sometimes is really annoying. Every package wants to optimize and introduces a lot of headache for other projects by doing so. Some people want to have stable packages, others want the latest and greatest. There is no such right package-combination.

[GeneFC]

Win7 came out 12 years ago.
. . .
There are no security updates available anymore from MS so using win7 connected to the Internet is obviously a really bad idea.

I came out quite a few more years ago!

The security update issue is 99.9% bogus. All of the big problems one hears about are due to clicking on bad links and similar dangerous behavior. The security "updates" appear to be mostly aimed at buffer overruns. I do not believe most of the big problems stem from tricky programming like buffer overruns.

As a strictly wild guess I would expect that far more security problems today are seen by users of Windows 10 than Windows 7, purely due to the number of users.

Gene

[freedman]

Here is the position of SolidWorks:

SOLIDWORKS 2015 SP5 and newer support Windows 10 Professional, which means if you’re running an older version of SOLIDWORKS you’ll need to upgrade.
If you decide to continue using Windows 7 then you will be unable to install SOLIDWORKS 2021 and beyond. Consider what other companies in your supply chain are doing, SOLIDWORKS collaboration is the most seamless when everyone uses the same version. If they all upgrade, you may become the weak link!

Ya! SolidWorks has used the weak link strategy for years. The local sheet metal shops need to purchase SolidWorks licenses ($$$$) every year to stay current so they can modify user files. This is one big reason I want the future FreeCAD to be able to step in and address issues like this.

The fact is, most of the complaints are about modeling so I guess the developers have a good strategy.

[looo]

Unless there is such a very good reason to use python 3.9, can we please revert to python 3.8 for all ? Or even 3.7, because current stable Debian (Buster) provides python 3.7 !

The weekly-builds for windows are now shipped with py3.8. hopefully this solves the Win7 issues.