Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

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adrianinsaval
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by adrianinsaval »

Auto-constraints is a good default, manually adding every coincidence and every verticality/horizontality constraint is a PITA.
What are the negative consequences of having auto remove redundant? Are they really worth the trouble?
openBrain
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by openBrain »

adrianinsaval wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:31 pm Auto-constraints is a good default, manually adding every coincidence and every verticality/horizontality constraint is a PITA.
Maybe a PITA, but IMO a needed step for a total beginner (whom we are talking about right now). ;)
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by adrianinsaval »

Not really needed IMO, those who will learn and properly understand constraints will learn without being forced to do everything manually, and those won't, won't. Making it less convenient is unlikely to change that.
Even more, according to many people hitting newbies with complex tools and decisions is counterproductive to their learning process, starting with a simpler method and letting them find the complex options later when they actually need them is generally viewed as a better experience (specially when there is no formal training involved)
Of course we are in the realm of subjective opinions now.
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bambuko
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by bambuko »

So, it's like offering a car with three wheels because you are a "learner" and might do a harm to yourself if you go straight into four wheel power machine on a motorway.... :mrgreen:
I am using Link branch and Assembly3
you can also download ... and try it here
excellent Assembly3 tutorials here
chrisb
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by chrisb »

openBrain wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:29 pm
adrianinsaval wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:31 pm Auto-constraints is a good default, manually adding every coincidence and every verticality/horizontality constraint is a PITA.
Maybe a PITA, but IMO a needed step for a total beginner (whom we are talking about right now). ;)
I fully agree here. Sketching is not trivial and using "auto remove redundants" is no replacement for learning how sketches work. It leads to more of the well known newbie posts of the kind "I don't know how I did it, but got it finally fully constrained" where the result is a badly and often erroneous sketch.

The major problem is here that you don't know which constraint is removed. Change something at the left top of your sketch and get unnoticed a point-on-line at the right bottom removed.

I am also against auto-update, the reasons are already mentioned.

I am for auto-constraints. They are a help, and it is very clearly indicated what happens.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
chrisb
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by chrisb »

bambuko wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:53 pm So, it's like offering a car with three wheels because you are a "learner" and might do a harm to yourself if you go straight into four wheel power machine on a motorway.... :mrgreen:
Wrong. It's like needing a driver's licence before you are allowed to drive on your own.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by adrianinsaval »

chrisb wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:55 pm I fully agree here
...
I am for auto-constraints. They are a help, and it is very clearly indicated what happens.
My interpretation was that openBrain was arguing against auto-constraints so this would be contradictory
It leads to more of the well known newbie posts of the kind "I don't know how I did it, but got it finally fully constrained" where the result is a badly and often erroneous sketch.
And the opposite leads to newbies posting about how constraints don't work because it says it's redundant, newbies are newbies and they will always post silly things.
chrisb wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:59 pm Wrong. It's like needing a driver's licence before you are allowed to drive on your own.
This would be valid for profesional commercial software were a formal training course is part of the package, this is not the case for FreeCAD, there is no formal training for FreeCAD, anybody downloads and uses the software. It's more like putting a toddler at the wheels of a manual transmission car (and some of the synchronizers of the gearbox are fully worn out) and tell him it's a needed step for him to learn to drive for himself.
(if the analogy sounds too specific it's totally not because I learnt like that. I mean, why would you say that? Of course not :oops:)

Anyways, I guess it's not really harmful to default to deactivated either so I think it's not worth insisting, and I guess the learning argument is valid too although I wouldn't personally give it as much weight as others here.
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bambuko
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by bambuko »

adrianinsaval wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:44 pm ...This would be valid for profesional commercial software were a formal training course is part of the package, this is not the case for FreeCAD...
yeap, driving licence analogy is not appropriate for FreeCAD
Personally I don't mind what you eventually decide to do as long as it doesn't affect my ability to undo it :lol:
and... I am still convinced that whatever you do you will confuse newbs, particularly the kind that never used any CAD before
(or piss off those who used CAD before, because it will be different to what they are familiar with :mrgreen: )
I am using Link branch and Assembly3
you can also download ... and try it here
excellent Assembly3 tutorials here
Haavard
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by Haavard »

Yep, i personally believe we should do every thing possible to flatten the learning curve and make freecad as painless and enjoyable as possible to use. If most major cad software does something, there is probably a reason for it. If we should NOT do something in freecad, we need a stronger argument than "newbies will make mistakes". The alternative is that newbies still makes mistakes, and only get frustrated with freecad in the process.
chrisb
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Re: Sketcher - Auto remove redundants and Auto Update to be enabled for new users

Post by chrisb »

adrianinsaval wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:44 pm
chrisb wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:55 pm I fully agree here
...
I am for auto-constraints. They are a help, and it is very clearly indicated what happens.
My interpretation was that openBrain was arguing against auto-constraints so this would be contradictory
You are probably right that I messed things up, so in short:

- I'm strictly against "auto-remove-redundants". An absolute no go from me! I doubt it flattens the learning curve, it definitely makes it longer.
- I don't want auto update, but it does no unexpected harm, at one point users are annoyed and switch it off.
- I appreciate auto-constraints, but as before, if they are off, it's not really an issue, nothing unexpected happens.
A Sketcher Lecture with in-depth information is available in English, auf Deutsch, en français, en español.
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