Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

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drmacro
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by drmacro »

adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm ...provide info because it's the only thing rationally achievable in the short term for all of us...
That phrase pretty much sums up, why, when asked questions by new users, long term users provide "the way it's done in FreeCAD" or "here's a workaround" answers.

And, a lot of new users don't care if there is a different way or workaround, they just want to know how to do what they need to proceed with their project. Sure, they'd like if it was the same way they already know, they'd like if it was easier...but, being able to do it is what a many seek.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan: Spock: "...His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm you bring up external workbenches, what are we supposed to do about those?
only 1(A2P), and i'm comparing that one to an internal one(A3)... all others are default WB's
adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm We are not blind to FreeCAD's faults...
The way the faults are defended quite often it looks like it is...
adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm here we talk about being welcoming and provide info ...
We do in other threads indeed...
adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:23 pm "how can FreeCAD be better?" not around "how can FreeCAD be more similar to X software to make it easier for migrants?"
This is not the same as looking to other CAD software. If other CAD software have a good solution for a certain problem why not do the same...
But off course we have to think critical if a solution is a good solution... As example: a quite common request is Patterns in sketcher(In my memory have Solid Works this) and i'm not a fan of that. Patterns make a sketch more complex/ complicated(and thus slower in calculations), more difficult to maintain (read change) and as last more error prone.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

drmacro wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:46 pm Actually, one area that is not addressed very extensively is FreeCAD on Apple products...so, maybe, you have the perfect machine to help in that area. ;)
Maybe yes... But currently i spend my time on: https://github.com/grd/FreePDM ;)
drmacro wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:46 pm This situation is the result of FreeCAD's organic growth. I don't see that growth pattern changing. ...

Workbenches aren't overseen or managed, they are created, typically, by someone with a need and not because of a over arching design of FreeCAD.
Pity enough is this true! Maybe the lack of overview create the situation why i had written my initial post....
drmacro wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:46 pm Here we finally get to the real issue. "I expect". It is as simple as, FreeCAD is not what you expect. Could it be at some point? Maybe. At this point it is a toolbox with drawers full of stuff, some of the drawers aren't complete, the wrench sets don't have all the sizes, some the wrenches are in other drawers and the user needs to make it work for themselves.
Basically this is also the result of no overview as above... When your employer don't give the right tooling there is a need to modify tools. I personal don't like it that for sometimes basic functionality i have to look around for another (or external )WB.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by adrianinsaval »

Jee-Bee wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:47 pm only 1(A2P), and i'm comparing that one to an internal one(A3)... all others are default WB's
There is no internal assembly workbench, asm3 is an addon developed by realthunder.
The way the faults are defended quite often it looks like it is...
We defend the devs who are often unjustly attacked/insulted/disrespected when somebody doesn't like the functionality, or sometimes we just provide context about why something is the way it is. And naturally when the complaint amounts to "it's not the same as X, therefore it is bad" we defend FreeCAD! And of course there are here and there some zealots who would defend anything in FreeCAD but this is a minority.
Most of us are actively reporting/testing bugs, some are fixing them, some propose and/or work on improving the interface, we ask for features, we criticize and ask for changes, if we were blind to FreeCAD's faults we would not do any of this. It may seem to you that we do not see or do not care about the bigger issues (like consistency or TNP) but often it's just that we focus on stuff that is reasonably achievable for us.
This is not the same as looking to other CAD software. (...) But off course we have to think critical if a solution is a good solution...
yes looking at other CAD as reference is fine, but saying "X can do this therefore FreeCAD must also do it" is not productive, often we also have to take into account the kernel's capabilities, as an example many have complained and asked to improve the 3D offset tools, we can't do anything there because it's a limitation of OCCT. More often than not the only thing we can look at in other CAD is the interface and the terminology used, the technical details are not available (being proprietary) and would not be compatible with OCCT anyway.
So the approach should be: is this technically possible in FreeCAD? if yes, what's the closest thing already in FreeCAD? Where in FreeCAD do we want the functionality? And last, here's the interface of a couple of CADs to use as inspiration if they are compatible with FreeCAD.
If other CAD software have a good solution for a certain problem why not do the same...
If they were open source this would certainly be a sane thing to do but since they aren't, whatever their solution is it's generally useless to us if it's not trivial to mimic.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:55 pm There is no internal assembly workbench, asm3 is an addon developed by realthunder.
To be honest i never used the version of Realthunder... So i have no idea what the difference is between the A3 WB inside FC and the A3 / asm3 of realthunder.

Code: Select all

OS: macOS 10.15
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.20.28647 (Git)
Build type: Release
Python 3.9.12, Qt 5.12.9, Coin 4.0.0, OCC 7.5.3
Locale: C/Default (C)
Installed mods: 
  * A2plus 0.4.56
  * fasteners 0.3.41
  * Assembly4 0.11.12
adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:55 pm yes looking at other CAD as reference is fine, but saying "X can do this therefore FreeCAD must also do it" is not productive...
I can't remember i did this, i don't say i never did this 2015 is some time ago ;)... Even in the post up til now i didn't want to dive deep into examples but i had the feeling that i was forced into...
adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:55 pm ...often we also have to take into account the kernel's capabilities, as an example many have complained and asked to improve the 3D offset tools, we can't do anything there because it's a limitation of OCCT....
I'm quite sure none of my examples are related to OCCT(what is not the same as your interpretation of what i wrote here). At the same time i'm quite sure that the line between what are the capabilities of OCCT and the implementation within FC is quite thin.
I understand too that if a kernel is closed it is not easy to see what they are doing. This hold specially on complex features but there are enough simple task that should be more easy to mimic.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by adrianinsaval »

Jee-Bee wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:54 pm To be honest i never used the version of Realthunder... So i have no idea what the difference is between the A3 WB inside FC and the A3 / asm3 of realthunder.
there is no A3 wb inside FreeCAD! that was my point, see here the modules that are in FreeCAD, there's no assembly: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/tree/master/src/Mod
Version: 0.20.28647 (Git)
This version is a little outdated, stable version is out (29177) and newer 0.21 dev builds are also available, I understand the source of your confusion regarding A3, it was getting bundled for convenience in the conda builds because at the time it was not easy to install A3 with the addon manager, now it should install as any other external addon so it was removed from the conda builds. sadly this was very poorly comunicated.
I can't remember i did this
I can't remember you doing it either, I'm not talking specifically about you, I'm generalizing since we often see those type of posts.
I'm quite sure none of my examples are related to OCCT(what is not the same as your interpretation of what i wrote here).
thickness functions within Part designs Extrude / Revolve
This is very much closely related to OCCTs capabilities. Some fo the other stuff you asked are not about the kernel but are not trivial to implement either since it requires new functionality in the solvers and solvers also involve pretty advanced math, the sketcher solver are actually developed in FreeCAD so it's not out of our control but that's not useful if we don't have someone with the expertise and willingness to do it for free. I would love to have support for all constraints in BSplines but I understand why the functionality is not there.
offset function in sketcher
I too have asked for this for a long time and luckily there is finally someone working on this! It probably won't be a fully parametric offset though. However in 0.20 there was another development that works for this in Part Design, subshapebinders now have a property to make 2D offsets and this is even better for my use case than the upcoming sketcher offset.
This hold specially on complex features but there are enough simple task that should be more easy to mimic.
Yes and were it makes sense it's fine to draw inspiration from other CAD, see the navicube for example. Besides the kernel capabilities it's also important to ask for realistic things, for example nobody is going to do a full rewrite of a workbench to fit the workflow of another CAD and changes that entail breaking backwards compatibility to more closely resemble some other CAD are also very unlikely to be accepted.
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Kunda1
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Kunda1 »

adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:11 pm there is no A3 wb inside FreeCAD! that was my point, see here the modules that are in FreeCAD, there's no assembly: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/tree/master/src/Mod
If I'm not mistaken, there used to be in the AppImage https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD-Bundle/issues/100 (that is just for solvespace but I think A3 was too)
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adrianinsaval
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by adrianinsaval »

yes, and I said so in my next apragraph:
it was getting bundled for convenience in the conda builds because at the time it was not easy to install A3 with the addon manager, now it should install as any other external addon so it was removed from the conda builds. sadly this was very poorly comunicated.
For jee-bee specifically he got it with the dmg which is also built using conda
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Kunda1
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Kunda1 »

Oh my bad. Apologies.
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Re: Fusion360 has hiked its prices once again. Brace yourselves, CADfugees are coming

Post by Jee-Bee »

adrianinsaval wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:11 pm
Jee-Bee wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:54 pm To be honest i never used the version of Realthunder... So i have no idea what the difference is between the A3 WB inside FC and the A3 / asm3 of realthunder.
there is no A3 wb inside FreeCAD! that was my point, see here the modules that are in FreeCAD, there's no assembly: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/tree/master/src/Mod
Version: 0.20.28647 (Git)
This version is a little outdated, stable version is out (29177) and newer 0.21 dev builds are also available, I understand the source of your confusion regarding A3, it was getting bundled for convenience in the conda builds because at the time it was not easy to install A3 with the addon manager, now it should install as any other external addon so it was removed from the conda builds. sadly this was very poorly comunicated.
I know it is old... but with my amount of usage it is not needed to refresh is it weekly ;)
Check than i understand the source of the problem a bit better
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