[Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

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Haavard
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[Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by Haavard »

openBrain wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:43 pm FYI, I just pushed a PR that could have allowed everyone to test coincident constrain merging within point-on-object one : https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/pull/7478
Compiled and tested for perhaps 10 minutes and like it a lot, thanks for the effort.
Merging these commands is definitely a yes from me based on my limited testing so far.
Last edited by Haavard on Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
user1234
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by user1234 »

adrianinsaval wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:59 pm I wonder if incorrect usage would really increase if these are combined, I think the opposite might actually happen.
No it is then still false (not closed shape), even worse, because then you even have no visual feedback anymore (or better said, the false symbol feedback). Also the command symbol should match the symbol in the side panel. When it does not, it is inconsistent and misleading. And when it is all the same, good luck with error searching.



adrianinsaval wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:59 pm click one side of the line, done, you can see the difference
This works only when the rest is not constraint, like the example i provided. But when many constraint already set, then this also do not work anymore. And when you are search errors in a sketch, then many constraints are already set.



adrianinsaval wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:59 pm we have substitution for these kind of situation for end point tangency, why wouldn't we be able to have it for coincidence? (that's would be a nice feature idea btw). In general for most or everything that was mentioned, why is this acceptable for tangency/end point tangency, perpendicular/end point perpendicular and symmetry about line/point but not for coincidence/point on object?
To be honest, i am very unhappy with the tangency symbol/usecase. But since that case is not that often and when it is false constraint you have a missing point (vertex) or a clearly shifted point (vertex, since it is hopping while false constraining much wider then a straight line), then it is at least easy to catch.


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chrisb
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Re: dead topic

Post by chrisb »

obelisk79 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:04 pm I'll ask again, kindly, for the moderators to lock this thread.
I think it is a reasonable request as the originator of this forum discussion.
Until now we never locked a topic for such reason, and I don't think that mere disagreement should be a reason to lock it. I don't feel offended, and I hope I wasn't offending either.
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adrianinsaval
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by adrianinsaval »

user1234 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:01 pm This works only when the rest is not constraint, like the example i provided. But when many constraint already set, then this also do not work anymore. And when you are search errors in a sketch, then many constraints are already set.
why? if you use a sane selection highlight color (speaking of which the default should be changed!) it doesn't matter if it's constrained or not, you click a side of the horz line (in your example) and you immediately know if it's just two lines with point on object or 3 lines with coincident vertex.

Also, currently coincidence has no icon in 3d view, we can keep that behavior and the whole troubleshooting side of things remains exactly the same.

Anyways, I compiled and tested openbrain's PR, I think it's a pretty good change, there is some probability that you can click a line when you wanted a vertex as genefc was worried, I don't think it's a big issue but I think this can be greatly alleviated by making a similar thing than with tangent+coincidence constraint (gets replaced by endpoint tangency) so that if you put two point on object constraints it is replaced by a coincidence constraint. To please those who want to keep old behavior it might be better to have a dropdown with the separate commands as with the rad/diam constraints, although the boolean parameter does the job too.
user1234
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by user1234 »

adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:48 pm
user1234 wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:01 pm This works only when the rest is not constraint, like the example i provided. But when many constraint already set, then this also do not work anymore. And when you are search errors in a sketch, then many constraints are already set.
why? if you use a sane selection highlight color (speaking of which the default should be changed!) it doesn't matter if it's constrained or not, you click a side of the horz line (in your example) and you immediately know if it's just two lines with point on object or 3 lines with coincident vertex.
I think there is somehow a misunderstanding and i do not really know what you mean, sorry.


adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:48 pm Also, currently coincidence has no icon in 3d view
Yes and that is annoying, that should be changed/fixed. I do not think that is intended.


adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:48 pm it might be better to have a dropdown with the separate commands
Please no dropdown, it is already annoying with radius/diameter commands, i need both very often (yes both also on half and full circles).


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GeneFC
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by GeneFC »

adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:48 pm there is some probability that you can click a line when you wanted a vertex as genefc was worried, I don't think it's a big issue
One of the key drivers for this proposed change was to reduce the confusion for new or infrequent users who cannot figure out which constraint to use. Let FreeCAD choose automatically.

The result now is the potential for that confusion goes away and the potential for an incorrect constraint increases.

Who knows the odds for either problem? (Answer: absolutely nobody.)

This change just replaces one cause of confusion with another.

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adrianinsaval
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by adrianinsaval »

You realize you can easily add them to a custom toolbar? FreeCAD gives you all the power to customize the interface to your specific use cases but the defaults should be geared towards newcomers.
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by GeneFC »

adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:23 pm the defaults should be geared towards newcomers.
That is fine, but it is pure guessing whether this change helps or hurts newcomers.

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user1234
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by user1234 »

adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:23 pm You realize you can easily add them to a custom toolbar?
Yes, but not for the existing standart toolbar. This means when adding, you must create a new toolbar and add every constraint tool.


adrianinsaval wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:23 pm but the defaults should be geared towards newcomers
No, the default setting should be for the standard common user, not for beginners. I allow me to quote myself:
user1234 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 11:51 pm Generally: not everything must be for new users. Not for gatekeeping (i also can not place a untrained people to a lathe, only because the lathe has comfort functions; only because CAD is a computer program, does not the damages smaller), just for the correct clean workflow. For that, some information or extra steps are needed. I have too often seen, that comfort functions causes big and expensive issues, more then the little extra steps. Because then users forget or does not recognize to work clean. And the generally workflow of FreeCAD have the best compromise between cleanness, overview and comfort (bugs, missing features and TNP excluded).

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adrianinsaval
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Re: [Discussion] Coincident vs Point on Object

Post by adrianinsaval »

GeneFC wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:20 pm and the potential for an incorrect constraint increases.
I disagree, the potential for incorrect constraint is already there, noobs will be noobs and they'll make mistakes, we've seen people applying point on object where they should have used coincidence in the current state, IMO this can help guide them towards actually using coincidence (specially if two point on object applied are detected and replaced by a coincidence)
GeneFC wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:35 pm That is fine, but it is pure guessing whether this change helps or hurts newcomers.
yeah, but that's not a good argument to keep the status quo either
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