[Poll] Remove 'Copy' 'Cut' 'Paste' 'Print' icons from toolbar.

[paddle]

And what a sign of great power to be able to switch to the <none> workbench. I mean when I do that I feel... Oww. Power. Yes!
But yes keep your rant going on.

[adrianinsaval]

Clever, but standard debate trick. You do not agree with me so your opinion has no value.
[...]
Personally, I do use the standard copy, cut, and paste shortcuts, but virtually no others. Some people seem to want only shortcuts and no icons, others want lots of icons. Generalizing based on these extremely limited polls is nothing but a fool's game.

so please do tell why we should leave it there where it takes space but conforms to the preference of small portion of people instead of moving to a different toolbar where all of us can have what we want? That's why IMO option "no" has no value, it solves nothing.

[adrianinsaval]

what? my action is the discussion points in the talk, I'm not a c++ coder so which is your point?
so what about your action?

neither am I, yet I made a PR for that and linked it, but you're right, that was an uncalled for attack from my part and I apologize, the internet makes it too easy to be inpolite, not that that justifies it.

but this complexity is "a sign of great power" reducing it to "minimal terms" only to "not fear newbies" IMHO is the most wrong way to "reduce learning curves".

I agree with this when we talk about actual features, I've been adamantly against the efforts to make a "for dummies" version of Part Design where all that is done is to hide features making it even harder to discover and learn about features. But common! we're talking about copy/paste here, are you seriously telling me that having those as icons is your concept of a powerful application? We're aiming to strike a balance, some ubiquitous stuff can be removed and some more useful stuff can be added.

[wmayer]

Also @wmayer, why are we using hard-coded toolbars by the way? Why are we not using only custom toolbars?

Sure, we can think about implementing it.

[paddle]

I mean it's just so funny. I remember 1 year ago when I started. I wanted to implement the arc slot tool in sketcher. And what people told me was
'No. That's not useful, we don't want to clutter the toolbar there are too many icons. This tool should be a macro. Blablabla'

And my argument was that it was going to be under slot group, wouldn't clutter the ui and make the sw more powerfull. But nooo people kept going on for pages saying why this sucked.

And now when I want to remove copy/cut/paste/print from toolbar I get the exact reverse comment. I'm trying to remove power from the toolbar. I mean oneclick-print-power yeah. But if you need an arcslot good luck.

[paddle]

Also @wmayer, why are we using hard-coded toolbars by the way? Why are we not using only custom toolbars?

Sure, we can think about implementing it.

I opened a topic about that some weeks ago. Here it is btw : https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=71893
I'm currently working on Task Element widget with Abdullah now but can have a deeper look at it after.

[easyw-fc]

Lol you are quoting from another topic where I was admitedly wrong about removing sketcher from selector. I offer proposals, I didn't say they're all good. This sketcher proposal poll showed very quickly it was a bad idea, and now that people told me why I agree.

This is plain intellectual dishonesty. I think this summazise very well your argumentation.

the point is what @onekk has posted in that thread:

I can't see why you have to remove almost anything you don't use from the toolbar.

FreeCAD is probably one of the most complex software that there is around, but this complexity is "a sign of great power" reducing it to "minimal terms" only to "not fear newbies" IMHO is the most wrong way to "reduce learning curves".

so you are so honest not to see that the phrase is a general objection to your way of creating these polls? please?!

.

What about copy/cut/paste. Look me in the eye and tell me that everytime you want to copy something in FC, you don't use ctrlC, Oh no! You don't right click, Oh no! You click on the toolbar.

exactly that is what I do everytime, but this is not the point... the point is what @onekk clearly stated above.

Clever, but standard debate trick.

You do not agree with me so your opinion has no value.

That is the gist of this entire issue. We hear again and again that only idiots would use the existing "excess" access, and real people must do it my way.

Personally, I do use the standard copy, cut, and paste shortcuts, but virtually no others. Some people seem to want only shortcuts and no icons, others want lots of icons. Generalizing based on these extremely limited polls is nothing but a fool's game.

Gene

standing ovation from my side... I couldn't have said it better myself

[wmayer]

Also @wmayer, why are we using hard-coded toolbars by the way? Why are we not using only custom toolbars?

Sure, we can think about implementing it.

I opened a topic about that some weeks ago. Here it is btw : https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=71893
I'm currently working on Task Element widget with Abdullah now but can have a deeper look at it after.

But note there are some difficulties we have to handle in a reasonable way. Assume you get the default toolbars of a workbench. Now you open an editor and modify (add, remove or change the order of commands) this toolbar. The whole toolbar (i.e. the names of the commands) will be saved to the user config file. But how should the case be handled that a new command should be added to the default toolbar? All users who have modified this toolbar won't see this change because their customized toolbar will override the default.

That was the main reason that we haven't implemented a customization of all existing toolbars but only implemented this option for toolbars a user has added.

[chennes]

But how should the case be handled that a new command should be added to the default toolbar?

Maybe we can add a feature to the toolbar settings that allows the explicit removal of a button, rather than just the addition of one. So that the code can scan through the list of buttons on those default toolbars, and if it sees no setting at all, that means the user has made no decision about that button, e.g. it must be new, and so we add it, and an entry for it into the preferences.

[obelisk79]

That was the main reason that we haven't implemented a customization of all existing toolbars but only implemented this option for toolbars a user has added.

I realize in regards to development I am a bit of a layman, however, could adding some kind of definable flag in the config be used to prompt a user about new functions and allow an opportunity to set a toolbar to default or simply just add the new function automatically? Perhaps such a process could get overly complicated, however it's at least an idea to think about.