[Poll] Remove 'Copy' 'Cut' 'Paste' 'Print' icons from toolbar.

[chrisb]

sense for whom? As I already pointed out 31% of the people said it didn't make sense (and 20 people on 29 people said to remove it, over 45000 user base...)

You are arguing rather unfair here or at least rather undifferentiated by saying that 14% "for removal but keep in toolbar" is to be interpreted to keep it. We don't know their bias from the poll. I could argue in a similarly unfair way as well, that obviously 44971 users don't care, or that 44983 users don't want to keep it as is.

[easyw-fc]

continued from: https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic. ... 39#p634339

no

what feature was removed? it's all still perfectly accesible to those who need them.

I already explained there, but if you don't want to see it I cannot do anything more

no, this is exactly a way to force people to adopt a not immediate use of a tool...

in which way you can re-activate the 'copy paste' buttons toolbar? a part customizing the 'global toolbar', operation not really friendly for a noobie?

whit this I agree, hence my vote to put it in a separate toolbar so that it may be easily shown/hidden, but with the changes that where already merged I was actually able to organize my toolbars in a more satisfactory manner now that I'm not wasting space with commands that I (and most people out there) would never actually click on.

I think @Gene explained perfectly here

Reducing the number of icons have a lot of advantages that I thought self explanatory.

Not at all self explanatory or even true.
Yes, in some cases that makes sense. In other cases it means the less-experienced user will need to search for the wanted operation buried in some drop-down menu or elsewhere.
You are obviously applying your own preferences and usage patterns. That does not make them universal.

and more:

sense for whom? As I already pointed out 31% of the people said it didn't make sense on 29 people over 45000...

no, 17% say they didn't like the change, but didn't actually provide a compelling reason why we should waste space with these commands there. 14% thought it should be in a separate toolbar so that it may be easily show or hidden by whoever wanted it.

you 'forgot' the other 14%, but you wanted to forget
and more you forgot that we are talking of 29 users on 45 thousand ... users that in 11 years didn't say anything against copy/paste buttons

i.e. in LO:

copy-paste-default.png

yeah but on the other hand have a look at kate, kdevelop, krita, gimp, blender, solvespace, onshape, solidworks (I think?).

In most windoze sw copy paste are available as default or it is simple easy to enable those buttons...
Autocad etc...
Moreover noobies are exactly the ones would use it.

In other cases it means the less-experienced user will need to search for the wanted operation buried in some drop-down menu or elsewhere.
You are obviously applying your own preferences and usage patterns.

This PR merged wiped out the buttons and the option to add them unless through an unfriendly global toolbar...
and nobody asked for removing those since FreeCAD began in January 2001...

[easyw-fc]

sense for whom? As I already pointed out 31% of the people said it didn't make sense (and 20 people on 29 people said to remove it, over 45000 user base...)

You are arguing rather unfair here or at least rather undifferentiated by saying that 14% "for removal but keep in toolbar" is to be interpreted to keep it. We don't know their bias from the poll. I could argue in a similarly unfair way as well, that obviously 44971 users don't care, or that 44983 users don't want to keep it as is.

you are arguing rather unfair here or at least rather undifferentiated by saying that 69% "Yes remove them." is to be interpreted to the FC user base.
21 users on 45449 users ...

In most windoze sw copy paste are available as default or it is simple easy to enable those buttons...
Autocad etc...
Moreover noobies are exactly the ones would use it.

In other cases it means the less-experienced user will need to search for the wanted operation buried in some drop-down menu or elsewhere.
You are obviously applying your own preferences and usage patterns.

This PR merged wiped out the buttons and the option to add them unless through an unfriendly global toolbar...
and nobody asked for removing those since FreeCAD began in January 2001...

[obelisk79]

The copy/cut/paste menu entries and keyboard shortcuts follow the same format as what I would guess is roughly the same format as 90+% of PC software everywhere. That's productivity, office suites, notepads, IDE's, web browsers etc; this is fairly ubiquitous. The toolbar buttons are NOT ubiquitous. If a computer user can't figure out these most basic of shortcuts and menu locations they are in for much more of a struggle in modern life than just figuring out FreeCAD. That being said, I agree that a separate optional toolbar is probably a good idea and changed my poll vote to reflect such.

[wmayer]

What about implementing a user option to re-insert the Cut, Copy, Paste commands? By default the commands won't be added but if the user changes/creates a certain parameter key he can bring them back. There doesn't need to be a setting in the preferences dialog but I think it's acceptable if the user has to directly change the user parameters instead.

I agree with easyw-fc that when he wants to have them back creating a global toolbar isn't a user-friendly option because it's simply not possible to add them to the same position as before the removal. And another drawback of a global toolbar is that for every switch to another workbench it might be placed to a different location.

[adrianinsaval]

much talk but little action from some of the complainers, so here's my take: https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/pull/7620

some users would like to have cut/copy/paste in the toolbar, by making it a separate toolbar it is easier to hide for those that don't want it. Same situation with the what's this? command, by making it a separate toolbar it is easily hidden by those not using it.
The undo/redo/refresh commands where moved into a separate Edit toolbar to be a little more consistent with the menus and to some extent with other software that have this separated, this also makes it easier to customize the location of toolbars, for example I would prefer to have the Structure toolbar between File and Edit. If this is undesired I will revert this portion of the changes.

Opinions?

What about implementing a user option to re-insert the Cut, Copy, Paste commands? By default the commands won't be added but if the user changes/creates a certain parameter key he can bring them back. There doesn't need to be a setting in the preferences dialog but I think it's acceptable if the user has to directly change the user parameters instead.

I'm not against this but this doesn't really address at all the "it's not user friendly to add the commands to the toolbars" argument. Ideally for me all toolbars would be easily customizable like in the qtwidget based KDE apps but that's a different story.

[GeneFC]

no, 17% say they didn't like the change, but didn't actually provide a compelling reason why we should waste space with these commands there, so these opinions don't provide anything of value IMO. 14% thought it should be in a separate toolbar so that it may be easily show or hidden by whoever wanted it.

Clever, but standard debate trick.

You do not agree with me so your opinion has no value.

That is the gist of this entire issue. We hear again and again that only idiots would use the existing "excess" access, and real people must do it my way.

Personally, I do use the standard copy, cut, and paste shortcuts, but virtually no others. Some people seem to want only shortcuts and no icons, others want lots of icons. Generalizing based on these extremely limited polls is nothing but a fool's game.

Gene

[easyw-fc]

much talk but little action from some of the complainers

what? my action is the discussion points in the talk, I'm not a c++ coder so which is your point?
BTW I created at least three workbenches which are widely used ...
and my personal commits (mostly on python part) are more then yours (I'm #63 and you are #91)
https://github.com/FreeCAD/FreeCAD/graphs/contributors
so what about your action?

Ideally for me all toolbars would be easily customizable like in the qtwidget based KDE apps but that's a different story.

that would be the preferred option

I would like to summarize with a previous post where I agree so much:

...
IMO it should be removed from the selector such that Sketcher cannot be accessed outside of edit mode. The few tools that are in Sketcher and are working in Not-edit-mode should be available in Part Design to be more visible.
...

I can't see why you have to remove almost anything you don't use from the toolbar.

FreeCAD is probably one of the most complex software that there is around, but this complexity is "a sign of great power" reducing it to "minimal terms" only to "not fear newbies" IMHO is the most wrong way to "reduce learning curves".

Probably if this "iconoclastic urge" of simplifying FreeCAD "deleting most of the UI" was geared toward making more Tutorials and "ironing out" UI discrepancies and bugs it will be more useful for the entire project.

and from other comments in a similar thread, imo the poll's user is simply trying to adapt FreeCAD to its way of using it:

Seriously, I explained it already to you some weeks ago (if not days)...

Please share your argument, especially if it's against.

I use this everyday, some of us hate the Part Design workflow so just because you like it doesn't mean we should suffer, unbelievable and appalling suggestion, sorry but you need to take a break.

and thanks @wmayer for offering an other option too...

[paddle]

What about implementing a user option to re-insert the Cut, Copy, Paste commands? By default the commands won't be added but if the user changes/creates a certain parameter key he can bring them back. There doesn't need to be a setting in the preferences dialog but I think it's acceptable if the user has to directly change the user parameters instead.

I agree with easyw-fc that when he wants to have them back creating a global toolbar isn't a user-friendly option because it's simply not possible to add them to the same position as before the removal. And another drawback of a global toolbar is that for every switch to another workbench it might be placed to a different location.

I think this make the most sense. Making an additional toolbar is ok, but it's adding one toolbar which isn't perfect. I prefer a settings enabling adding them back.

Also @wmayer, why are we using hard-coded toolbars by the way? Why are we not using only custom toolbars? The 'official' toolbars could just be pre-set custom toolbars. This way the 'official' toolbar would be customizable. Toolbar could even be integrated to the preference pack (which may already be the case?).
The only thing not implemented (I think but I'm not even sure) are the groups.

[paddle]

I would like to summarize with a previous post where I agree so much:

...
IMO it should be removed from the selector such that Sketcher cannot be accessed outside of edit mode. The few tools that are in Sketcher and are working in Not-edit-mode should be available in Part Design to be more visible.
...

I can't see why you have to remove almost anything you don't use from the toolbar.

FreeCAD is probably one of the most complex software that there is around, but this complexity is "a sign of great power" reducing it to "minimal terms" only to "not fear newbies" IMHO is the most wrong way to "reduce learning curves".

Probably if this "iconoclastic urge" of simplifying FreeCAD "deleting most of the UI" was geared toward making more Tutorials and "ironing out" UI discrepancies and bugs it will be more useful for the entire project.

Lol you are quoting from another topic where I was admitedly wrong about removing sketcher from selector. I offer proposals, I didn't say they're all good. This sketcher proposal poll showed very quickly it was a bad idea, and now that people told me why I agree.

This is plain intellectual dishonesty. I think this summazise very well your argumentation.

I offer changes, some bad, some good. It's not because you're against one that meets majority of voters that you have to be demeaning to me.

In all honesty, can you please tell me when is the last time you clicked on the 'Print' tool in the toolbar? Comeon let me know. Because print is such an important tool to have at hand in CAD programs (excluded techdraw which obviously needs it). I would even go as far as say that it's a sign of great power to be able to print at anytime my 3D model (no offence onekk of course, you didn't post that for those).

What about copy/cut/paste. Look me in the eye and tell me that everytime you want to copy something in FC, you don't use ctrlC, Oh no! You don't right click, Oh no! You click on the toolbar.