FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

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adrianinsaval
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by adrianinsaval »

jimmihenry wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:31 pm About Blender, you have to confirm changes and then confirm the confirmation. On top of that you have to activate the stuff you have confirmed, every step well hidden in sub menus, many clicks. That's what is call a steep learning curve, so much about Blender.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I don't know any software developer that would do something drastic like that, changing it's appearance after being years on the market.
Have you lived under a rock the past two decades or something?
Due decades Industry hardened engineers can confirm that the actual FreeCAD gradient does work perfect. This is approved and very valuable!
False, this all started due to bad contrast in some overlays with the background.
Look at Gimp or Inkscape they come all with the classic look after install.
False, current default gimp is very different to older versions and inkscape IIRC has a startup dialog where you choose this.
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sliptonic
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by sliptonic »

obelisk79 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:22 pm
pathfinder wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:09 am.
The fact of the matter is, as sliptonic correctly stated, that this is not about what most people will end up using, but what most people will start with.
I am going to disagree with this. If the initial experience is pleasing, and effective, then most users *will* end up keeping it. So I think it is worthy of consideration. A well thought out and effective style doesn't need to be changed/customized.
It's possible that many/most users stick with it. If that happens, so much the better. It means we not only met the goal, we CRUSHED it!

However, it's extremely important that we agree on the GOAL. If we say we're trying to do THAT, the task becomes almost impossible. At a bare minimum, we would need a usability lab and an army of UX experts. If we set the goal the way I described it, then it is achievable.

That's also why I intentionally did not talk about anything else like a first-run wizard. That would be a cool thing but it's out of scope for this effort.
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jimmihenry
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by jimmihenry »

adrianinsaval wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:29 pm
jimmihenry wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:31 pm About Blender, you have to confirm changes and then confirm the confirmation. On top of that you have to activate the stuff you have confirmed, every step well hidden in sub menus, many clicks. That's what is call a steep learning curve, so much about Blender.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I don't know any software developer that would do something drastic like that, changing it's appearance after being years on the market.
Have you lived under a rock the past two decades or something?
Due decades Industry hardened engineers can confirm that the actual FreeCAD gradient does work perfect. This is approved and very valuable!
False, this all started due to bad contrast in some overlays with the background.
Look at Gimp or Inkscape they come all with the classic look after install.
False, current default gimp is very different to older versions and inkscape IIRC has a startup dialog where you choose this.
It is not your business if or where i lived the past two decades! If you did not notice the gradient has been changed already. And the contrast is remaining as bad at it was.
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sliptonic
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by sliptonic »

jimmihenry wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:53 pm
adrianinsaval wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:29 pm
jimmihenry wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:31 pm About Blender, you have to confirm changes and then confirm the confirmation. On top of that you have to activate the stuff you have confirmed, every step well hidden in sub menus, many clicks. That's what is call a steep learning curve, so much about Blender.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
I don't know any software developer that would do something drastic like that, changing it's appearance after being years on the market.
Have you lived under a rock the past two decades or something?
Due decades Industry hardened engineers can confirm that the actual FreeCAD gradient does work perfect. This is approved and very valuable!
False, this all started due to bad contrast in some overlays with the background.
Look at Gimp or Inkscape they come all with the classic look after install.
False, current default gimp is very different to older versions and inkscape IIRC has a startup dialog where you choose this.
It is not your business if or where i lived the past two decades! If you did not notice the gradient has been changed already. And the contrast is remaining as bad at it was.
Let's focus on the task at hand.
FYI, Uwe opened a PR to revert the gradient to the 0.20 standard so we can proceed with this broader effort without muddying the water.
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pathfinder
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by pathfinder »

obelisk79 wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 1:22 pm
pathfinder wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:09 am.
The fact of the matter is, as sliptonic correctly stated, that this is not about what most people will end up using, but what most people will start with.
I am going to disagree with this. If the initial experience is pleasing, and effective, then most users *will* end up keeping it. So I think it is worthy of consideration. A well thought out and effective style doesn't need to be changed/customized.

I think my point got lost a bit. What I meant was that from my perspective, the new default look should mainly focus on new users and not focus as much on pleasing already established users who may have gotten used to the old design and may therefore be somewhat biased towards it.

This may be a side thought, but I wonder how much FC should be willing to compromise on the "usability vs coolness" scale. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but there's an argument to be made that a slightly unoptimized but appealing UI attracts more users, who may eventually optimize it to their needs. If you start out, efficiency gains due to layout and color scheme don't weight as heavily. This observation is based on my own experience with getting into FreeCAD.

When I got back into FC after using it years ago, I started with Realthunders fork and the Vertical UI layout, because I liked its look and it kept me excited working with a program that looked modern. Due to it being more up to date, I do use Vanilla FC with the BehaveDark layout and a dark monochrome background as well, so I pretty much use two different layouts at the same time. Now, after using FC regularly for quite a while, I prefer FCs more classic layout (but dark) and am glad that I never ended up applying the VertUI layout to it. But, I came to appreciate the original layout only after I got into FC through a modern layout, which made FreeCAD look fresh and exciting.
Yes, this is a superficial position to have. But it's how it worked for me. I don't know how representative I am, though and I also don't know whether FCs main concern is attracting more new users in the first place.
jimmihenry wrote: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:31 pm Above all Blender did not change it's look!
2.79 UI vs 2.8 UI (and this is the latest release)
Last edited by pathfinder on Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MisterMaker
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by MisterMaker »

compare.png
compare.png (86.15 KiB) Viewed 2625 times
I did something.
Since I already have the DArk and Light theme there will be:
  • Classic
  • Dark
  • Light
WIP so still a bit buggy.
edit
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jimmihenry
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by jimmihenry »

@pathfinder Thank you for the screenshots for comparison of the Blender UI. The theme is grey they did not alter the colours. It is still recognizable as Blender. The face of Blender is the same!

FreeCAD becomes more icons and it progresses the point is colours are important for ergonomics, these colours that we have are working. The blue gradient suits hardware and your eyes. The problem is, and this was the beginning of this background colour discussion that the red dimensions from the sketcher and the blue gradient did not work together. The red dimensions do not work with grey either... Try green and red... same story. FreeCAD needs another dimension colour not a different gradient because the gradient works just fine.

The gradient that has been chosen for FreeCAD works even for Displays that are dated before 2000, it works for CRT, TFT, LED, DLP, OLED and other monitors. That means there is the smallest deviation to the colour, on top of that the gradient colour does allow you to look a very long time into the display before you get eyestrain. It is not a coincidence that the brand new Mercedes Benz factory is also blue, they even have thrown a Kuka robot out because it was orange, they wont everything to be blue. Blue is a good colour for you (you may argue you are probably wrong). Green like Reseda green RAL 601/ DIN1844 is also a good colour for your eyes but more problematic on different displays...

I know the apply button to the preferences packs, have no problem my theme is saved. I also like dark themes and run dark themes for every software i can, but i would never enforce this to others. Dark themes are great if you do work at night with dimmed light...

P.S. I don't run FreeCAD with the dark theme. Did not find one i like, because of various reasons!
Colours are problematic :lol: !
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NormandC
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by NormandC »

Hello,

Now that's a complicated, potentially conflictual topic, nearly as much as the FreeCAD logo... ;)

Some history, if anyone cares about it. The FreeCAD default background colour dates back from its early days, nearly 20 years ago. Juergen Riegel (FreeCAD's founder) based it on CATIA's, which he considered the pinnacle of CAD software. Much of early FreeCAD features are inspired by CATIA.

I've been a 3D CAD user for 24 years (starting on AutoCAD/Mechanical Desktop with a pure black background). Contrary to what's been suggested here, background colours do change over the years, at least in the commercial CAD world - that is, for other software than CATIA!

The trend in the industry has been leaning toward light backgrounds. Even pure white in some cases. You can search for images of Solidworks, Inventor, Fusion 360, Solid Edge, Onshape, PTC Creo Parametric or Elements.

Solid Edge has a black and grey gradient I find unsuited to the other colours in the program; in the sketch mode, dimensional constraints are dark red, and when they are on a darker part of the screen, they're not very readable.

I use a straight white background, I don't find it tiring for the eyes. But I do use CAD at work during the day, rarely in low lighting conditions.

I know that this is mostly an aesthetic issue, and that a background colour can be changed by the end user, but the current one feels extremely outdated. Updating it for the 1.0 release is a good idea. Personally I would suggest a light grey gradient, something relatively neutral. But as it's been mentioned, no matter the chosen colour scheme, it will require adapting the Sketcher colours as well.

Anyway, that's my two cents...

Cheers

P.S. Solid Edge does offer multiple colour themes such as "Classic", "Solid Edge 2000" for the old-timers... ;)
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MisterMaker
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by MisterMaker »

As I see it's not too hard to change the gradient. My idea is that the simple top to down gradient looks outdated. I want to try different gradients with maybe more than 2 colors and different angles.
Probably the 2 current colors with an added third one, then you get that "it's new" feeling but still very recognizable.
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=72696
chrisb
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Re: FreeCAD looks for a new default background color

Post by chrisb »

MisterMaker wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:08 am Probably the 2 current colors with an added third one, then you get that "it's new" feeling but still very recognizable.
The requirement to be able to see every other color on such a background becomes more difficult. You should then think about the whole color set, because you take another color out with all its shades.
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