Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

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reox
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Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby reox » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:23 am

The A4 portrait template has a 20mm margin on the left side. The landscape template should have a 20mm margin on the top. Otherwise you can not punch holes in the paper.

My proposed change would be:

Code: Select all

$ diff /usr/share/freecad-daily/Mod/TechDraw/Templates/A4_Landscape_ISO7200TD.svg A4_Landscape_ISO7200TD.svg 
16c16
< 			height="190"
---
> 			height="180"
18c18
< 			y="10" />
---
> 			y="20" />
jidoeuf
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby jidoeuf » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:16 am

The template meets the standard (ISO 5457).
You punch holes on the left side.
triplus
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby triplus » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:36 am

Yes that is correct. A4 size should have the margin on the left and not on the top.

P.S. If custom drawing template is needed and following some standards is not all that important. End user has the possibility to add a custom drawing template
reox
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby reox » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:09 pm

jidoeuf wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:16 am
The template meets the standard (ISO 5457).
You punch holes on the left side.
No, in my opinion the landscape template does not meet the standard! In the landscape view, the 20mm margin is at the top, thus if you rotate the paper by 90 degree ccw, it is on the left (same as in portrait).

Longer explaination: Take a look in the standard itself. It specifies a drawing area for A4 of 180x277mm. As A4 is 210x297mm, there is a total border of 30mm = 20+10mm on the shorter side and a total border of 20mm = 10 + 10mm on the longer side.
The problem is, the image in the standard is not consistent with the text above it, because the 20mm margin is shown on the longer side of the page (in landscape) but 20 + b_2 + 10 = 307 != b_1 (297). For all other formats this is correct, but not for A4. Thus, the border must be at the top when using A4 landscape. I also have a technical drawing script from my university, which tells me the same.
In my opinion, the drawing area should be acknowledged, thus A4 landscape has the specialty to have the larger border on top, which makes sense if you like to put the drawing into folder.

In any case, there is no 20mm margin on the A4 landscape template at all...
triplus wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:36 am
P.S. If custom drawing template is needed and following some standards is not all that important. End user has the possibility to add a custom drawing template
Yes I know you can use custom templates.
But the larger border is very useful. Otherwise you will always punch the holes through the border.
And in technical drawing everything is about standards.

I understand if this is not an issue for everyone, and will use my adopted template then...
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Kunda1
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby Kunda1 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:20 pm

@reox, maybe it's possible to still include your template but just name it based on how you tweeked it?
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reox
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby reox » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:39 pm

Like A4_Landscape_ISO7200TD_withborder.svg ? Sure, why not. I can create a pull request if you like.
jidoeuf
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby jidoeuf » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:09 pm

reox wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:09 pm
Thus, the border must be at the top when using A4 landscape.
My mistake, you're right. It's specific to A4 template.
triplus
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby triplus » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:25 pm

reox wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:09 pm
No, in my opinion the landscape template does not meet the standard!
I overlooked you are talking about the A4 Landscape template. I thought you would like to add bigger margin on top of the A4 Portrait template. As for the A4 Landscape template you are correct in assuming it does not meet the standard recommendation. I added it for user convenience (as a lot of FreeCAD users have A4 printer) back in the Drawing workbench days. If i would follow the standard recommendation strictly i would not add A4 Landscape template at all.

In short A4 Landscape template is in its nature a non-standard drawing template and it is there only for user convenience. If you want to strictly follow the standard recommendation then do not use it in the first place.
reox
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby reox » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:57 am

triplus wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:25 pm
I added it for user convenience (as a lot of FreeCAD users have A4 printer) back in the Drawing workbench days. If i would follow the standard recommendation strictly i would not add A4 Landscape template at all.
I use the A4 template a lot - first of all because I also only have a A4 printer and my parts are usualy so small to fit on a single A4 page :)

The current standard ( DIN EN ISO 5457:2017-10 / EN ISO 5457:1999 + A1:2010 (D)) specifies that for A4 both formats are valid (this was added in the amendment 1:2010). But the image in the standard does not match the table above it for the landscape view... As I said, my script says the border should be on the top, thus the drawing area has the correct size.
triplus
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Re: Change A4 Landscape template with top 20mm margin?

Postby triplus » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:08 pm

When adding the templates i didn't perceive the A4 Landscape one as being a standard one. And as A4 size is rather small i wanted to maximize the drawing area. Therefore there is no area for punch holes. Now this can be changed if desired. In my opinion not from the standard point of view but from the end user desire point of view. I am more or less OK with whatever happens.

As for the standard. You would need to use the A4 Portrait drawing template, rotate it by 90 degrees and add orientation marks on it. That would likely satisfy the standard recommendations from some classic drawing sheet/template theory point of view.