Until we change the paradigm. And until we use the (modular) workbench approach. New users will always be confronted with a few workbenches (by default). And will need to grasp the concept. If we change the paradigm. Were do we put FEM, Path, Transportation, Robot, Arch, Draft, Sketcher, Mechanical engineering ... functionality? That is to make everybody happy. And to make FreeCAD more new user friendly?
P.S. And there is another problem. Is the majority of new users prepared to use functionality not provided by default? Based on my past experience. No.
Workflow ideas
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Re: Workflow ideas
Disabled, and easy to enable from the Preferences menu
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Re: Workflow ideas
Why would you "disable" anything? Hiding is possibly OK, but disabling could cause problems. I know there are at least some cases where workbench routines depend on stuff in other workbenches. This is not normally visible to the user, but it sure would be if suddenly a workbench stopped working because another workbench was "disabled."
Gene
Gene
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kkremitzki
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Re: Workflow ideas
Having a workbench filter dropdown would help with this.
Re: Workflow ideas
End user can already use a filter (if desired). I see new users asking occasionally about the Ship, Raytracing ... sides of FreeCAD. And therefore having this functionality by default IMHO doesn't represent any real issues to new users. What usually does represent issues to new users is something not working as it should or missing feature(s).
Arguing if the workbench list is too long/short (by default). More articulated FreeCAD users usually do that. Likely just trying to scratch a personal itch.
Arguing if the workbench list is too long/short (by default). More articulated FreeCAD users usually do that. Likely just trying to scratch a personal itch.
Re: Workflow ideas
Yes, OK, I didn't mean to disable but hide, that way, as you suggest, everything would work properly but the WB list would be shorter (always thinking this is for newbies or people that never use some default installed WB and don't want to see them).GeneFC wrote: ↑Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:14 am Why would you "disable" anything? Hiding is possibly OK, but disabling could cause problems. I know there are at least some cases where workbench routines depend on stuff in other workbenches. This is not normally visible to the user, but it sure would be if suddenly a workbench stopped working because another workbench was "disabled."
Gene
Once again, for me Selector is the perfect tool for describing what funcionality, additionaly I suggest to hide some WB as default which would help newbies not to get scared, hehehe
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antoniovazquezblanco
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Re: Workflow ideas
I get that the most immediate solution to the "too many things shown" problem is to "hide" or "disable" things but that may not satisfy everyone as can be seen in this thread. I don't think that hiding or disabling is a solution because it becomes a problem for those who use things and now have to fight to find them.
I was thinking about making some brainstorming about other possible solutions. Showing things differently falls under the category of midpoint solutions for me.
As a new user, if I open Solidworks I am prompted if I want to open or create a part and after that I will dig deeper into functionality like raytracing. Solidworks does not hide that functionality from me but they know that in order to render, first I need a part so they don't ask me if I want to render a part before having one opened or created.
It is also important to note that when I first open FC, although I may know that I want a part created, I can be confused by the fact that I don't know wether I should go for the Part, Part Design or Sketcher toolbox. Descriptions of what each of the workbenches do are fundamental and are not shown to the user at first.
Maybe I should try to sketch existing workflows in FC so that we can streamline or simplify the UI.
I was thinking about making some brainstorming about other possible solutions. Showing things differently falls under the category of midpoint solutions for me.
As a new user, if I open Solidworks I am prompted if I want to open or create a part and after that I will dig deeper into functionality like raytracing. Solidworks does not hide that functionality from me but they know that in order to render, first I need a part so they don't ask me if I want to render a part before having one opened or created.
It is also important to note that when I first open FC, although I may know that I want a part created, I can be confused by the fact that I don't know wether I should go for the Part, Part Design or Sketcher toolbox. Descriptions of what each of the workbenches do are fundamental and are not shown to the user at first.
Maybe I should try to sketch existing workflows in FC so that we can streamline or simplify the UI.
Re: Workflow ideas
Hiding is one option. But likely the real challenge will be on how to improve the discoverability:
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32381
Using Workbenches paradigm, basically categories, we can already organize functionality in scopes. Maybe we could switch to PartDesign workbench by default in the future. As discussed in the other thread. That would eliminate the need to remove functionality. As new users wouldn't be confused anymore, on where to start first. I somehow feel that, at least for now, new users still manage. Exposed to a few workbenches, a few more or less, doesn't make such difference. The problem usually is on how to get new (and not just new) users to explore beyond PartDesign. And on how to make end users comfortable using functionality not provided by default. In addition we still lack in collaboration and upstream involvement. When it comes to the developers. And likely investing effort, to improve this area in the future, does make sense. That would likely lead to more quality made functionality, to be provided there, where it's needed and expected the most. Hence improving the new users experience.
This are rather tough challenges. I guess perfect fit for the next generation of FreeCAD endeavors. Striving to improve things.
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32381
Using Workbenches paradigm, basically categories, we can already organize functionality in scopes. Maybe we could switch to PartDesign workbench by default in the future. As discussed in the other thread. That would eliminate the need to remove functionality. As new users wouldn't be confused anymore, on where to start first. I somehow feel that, at least for now, new users still manage. Exposed to a few workbenches, a few more or less, doesn't make such difference. The problem usually is on how to get new (and not just new) users to explore beyond PartDesign. And on how to make end users comfortable using functionality not provided by default. In addition we still lack in collaboration and upstream involvement. When it comes to the developers. And likely investing effort, to improve this area in the future, does make sense. That would likely lead to more quality made functionality, to be provided there, where it's needed and expected the most. Hence improving the new users experience.
This are rather tough challenges. I guess perfect fit for the next generation of FreeCAD endeavors. Striving to improve things.
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antoniovazquezblanco
- Posts: 48
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Re: Workflow ideas
I believe discoverability is rather related to workflow also. FC has tons of workbenches capable of a lot of things and me myself haven't made the effort to play with them because I am extremely lazy and information is not presented in a very clear and dummy proof way. If I was asked what to do after creating or opening a part and I was shown the options to simulate the part, produce it in a CNC machine or 3D printer, render it into an astonishing image I would probably try to play with some of those options.triplus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:09 am Hiding is one option. But likely the real challenge will be on how to improve the discoverability:
https://forum.freecadweb.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=32381
I think that Start should not be treated as a Workbench and yes, I believe that using Part Design as the default WB can improve things for newcomers.
I have a question for you FC users. Is there any workbench you use without designing a part first? Maybe StepUp? Arch? Ship?
Re: Workflow ideas
And did finding PartDesign workbench represent a real issue to you. Being a new user?