Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

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blasVuwi
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:39 am

Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby blasVuwi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:48 am

Hello ;)

I've been playing around with the Arch and BIM workbenches. I've tried to add a window to a complex wall, created with multiple Cuts, but that window does not make a hole. I've reproduced it with a simple test case (attached).
Do windows just not work with cuts? Or am I doing something incorrect here?
Thanks for any help!
FreeCAD 0.18, 16131 (Git)
Attachments
problem.png
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problem.FCStd
(42.58 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
Roy_043
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:40 pm

Windows will only automatically create a hole in IFC components. In theory you can select the cut and create a wall from it. But this leads to a somewhat strange nesting structure: IFC Wall > Cut > IFC Structure > Rectangle. IMO you should not create a cut from IFC structure objects.
blasVuwi
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:39 am

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby blasVuwi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:43 pm

I've tried that, that does not work. What *does* work is not using Cut but only Arch Remove (not down arrow but minus).
Roy_043
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:08 pm

You are right you: for some reason it does not work if the cut is nested in the floor. But if you move it by dropping onto the top (document) node in the tree you can create a wall from it (and then move it back).

Note 1: The wall lies in the XY plane.

Note 2: There is a recompute issue in V19. Probably related to the nesting: Site > Building > Floor > Wall. See here.

Note 3: A wall has a subtractions property. So instead of creating a cut, you can create two extrusions, use one to create the wall and add the other to the wall's subtractions. To create the extrusions you can use Draft_Trimex (also available in the BIM WB) or Part_Extrude. EDIT: The Arch_Remove tool that you have already discovered creates such a subtraction.

Code: Select all

OS: Windows 8.1 (6.3)
Word size of OS: 64-bit
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.19.18024 (Git)
Build type: Release
Branch: master
Hash: 9cc8f6eb666b0a0ae2dc256f7bc0beb8c987710c
Python version: 3.6.8
Qt version: 5.12.1
Coin version: 4.0.0a
OCC version: 7.3.0
Locale: Dutch/Netherlands (nl_NL)
vocx
Posts: 1732
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:11 pm

blasVuwi wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:43 pm
I've tried that, that does not work. What *does* work is not using Cut but only Arch Remove (not down arrow but minus).
You should use Arch Workbench tools when working with architectural components; in this case Arch Add and Arch Remove. Mixing in Part Workbench operations is going to mess your design. Of course, internally Arch Add and Remove do use Part Fusion and Cut and so on, but they have further logic to work with Arch Components which is the base class of all Arch objects.
vocx
Posts: 1732
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:17 pm

Roy_043 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:08 pm
Note 2: There is a recompute issue in V19. Probably related to the nesting: Site > Building > Floor > Wall. See here.
This seems to have been introduced by the Link merge. So realthunder should look into it when he has time.
... To create the extrusions you can use Draft_Trimex (also available in the BIM WB) or Part_Extrude.
The Arch Wall and Arch Structure tools already create extrusions. I would prefer to use these instead of other Draft or Part tools.

You can do this

Code: Select all

Draft Line ---> Arch Wall
Draft Line 2 ---> Arch Wall 2
Arch Wall ---> Arch Remove ---> Arch Wall 2
You can use Arch Wall and Arch Structure on the other object to produce the element that you want.

Code: Select all

Draft Line (closed) ---> Arch Structure ---> Arch Wall
Draft Line2 ---> Arch Wall 2 ---> Arch Structure 2
It's pretty flexible, and you don't have to deal with Trimex or Part Extrude.
Roy_043
Posts: 504
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:48 pm

vocx wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:11 pm
Mixing in Part Workbench operations is going to mess your design.
I don't think this is correct. The Draft_Trimex tool is part of the BIM WB, and actually the Part_Extrude tool also is.
blasVuwi
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:39 am

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby blasVuwi » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:27 pm

vocx wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:11 pm

You should use Arch Workbench tools when working with architectural components; in this case Arch Add and Arch Remove. Mixing in Part Workbench operations is going to mess your design. Of course, internally Arch Add and Remove do use Part Fusion and Cut and so on, but they have further logic to work with Arch Components which is the base class of all Arch objects.
Well, the up/down arrows are right next to the + and - buttons in the Arch workbench, so how would a new user *know* not to use one set, but the other?
draft.png
draft.png (41.4 KiB) Viewed 167 times
But I'm glad to have found out how this works, I'll try to redo the cut walls over the weekend, then proceed with all the windows etc. ;)
vocx
Posts: 1732
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:09 pm

Roy_043 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:48 pm
I don't think this is correct. The Draft_Trimex tool is part of the BIM WB, and actually the Part_Extrude tool also is.
The BIM Workbench, in the words of its creator, is more like a "meta workbench", it collects useful tools from the other workbenches to have a set of tools that is good for building modelling.

The Draft Trimex tool is obviously provided and defined in the Draft Workbench, and the Part Extrude tool is similarly defined in the Part Workbench; they are not defined inside the BIM Workbench, just used by it. The BIM Workbench in theory imports every Draft and Arch tool, but that doesn't mean that all tools are completely useful in the context of building modelling.

So, yes, you can use Trimex and Extrude if you wish, but really, the same functionality is provided by Arch Wall and Arch Structure, so it's better to use these.
vocx
Posts: 1732
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:18 pm

blasVuwi wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:27 pm
... so how would a new user *know* not to use one set, but the other?
YOU SHOULD READ THE DOCUMENTATION!!!!11

Ha, ha, just kidding. The documentation is actually not very good at the moment. The author of Arch and BIM has said that himself, that he will work on the documentation.
yorik wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:21 pm
That's all for this month I guess, next month I'll be traveling most part of the month (Russia and Belgium, tell me if you are around for a beer!) so there will likely be much less coding from my part. But I'll concentrate on working on the documentation instead, which is in dire need of a good cleanup!

Cheers

Yorik
The Arch Workbench basically imports all Draft tools, in this case, Draft Upgrade and Draft Downgrade. But truly the most useful tools for architecture are those that create lines (simple line, polyline, arcs, circles, etc.). Learning to use the best tools comes from experience; so I suggest you try to follow some Arch Tutorials, and Video tutorials as well.
But I'm glad to have found out how this works, I'll try to redo the cut walls over the weekend, then proceed with all the windows etc. ;)
No problem.