Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

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Roy_043
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:27 am

vocx wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:09 pm
The BIM Workbench, in the words of its creator, is more like a "meta workbench", it collects useful tools from the other workbenches to have a set of tools that is good for building modelling.
The fact that the two mentioned tools are part of BIM toolbars, which is what I meant (obviously ;) ), must mean that they are useful and can be used.

So this sweeping statement still seems incorrect to me:
vocx wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:11 pm
Mixing in Part Workbench operations is going to mess your design.
vocx
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:37 am

Roy_043 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:27 am
So this sweeping statement still seems incorrect to me:
It's not a sweeping statement, it's a general recommendation for new users. It's like those users that start mixing Part Workbench operations with PartDesign operations. It may work some times, but other times it creates chaos. If you are an experienced user, then you already know the pitfalls, and what works and what doesn't; this all comes with experience. Newbies need to be invited to follow best practices.
Roy_043
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:52 am

My assumption at this point is that Part tools can be used inside an Arch/BIM workflow without any issues. If you know of any specific problems please share them.
blasVuwi
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby blasVuwi » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:09 am

vocx wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:37 am
It's not a sweeping statement, it's a general recommendation for new users. It's like those users that start mixing Part Workbench operations with PartDesign operations. It may work some times, but other times it creates chaos. If you are an experienced user, then you already know the pitfalls, and what works and what doesn't; this all comes with experience. Newbies need to be invited to follow best practices.
The problem is, as a newbie, I'm assuming that all the tools I see in the Arch workbench by default are good to use for arch stuff.. if this doesn't hold true, maybe they should not be shown by default in that workbench? Or am I expected to know which workbench the tools are actually from, and then only use those that are from Arch (which means I mostly cannot actually do any work :-/)
vocx
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:09 am

blasVuwi wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:09 am
The problem is, as a newbie, I'm assuming that all the tools I see in the Arch workbench by default are good to use for arch stuff.. if this doesn't hold true, maybe they should not be shown by default in that workbench?
This is both a characteristic of the system (open source development, everybody does what they want), and of the user (users will try to use tools however they want, no matter what the system or documentation says).
Or am I expected to know which workbench the tools are actually from, and then only use those that are from Arch ...
This could be approached by providing more documentation and tutorials, which for Arch, there are quite a lot online.

A newbie introduction should probably exist. But then there is the question of who is a newbie? Somebody with absolutely no CAD experience? Or somebody with CAD experience with other software, who just doesn't know FreeCAD? Or somebody who already knows FreeCAD, but who has never used the Arch Workbench? It's a difficult question to answer, and many users will just skip that, and dive into the program, right?

By the way, the BIM author is in fact working on some sort of "tutorial tool" to help people get into the BIM workflow. He has mentioned this several times before, but so far he hasn't released something to test. There's a lot of things to do, not enough time!
yorik wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:13 pm
Excellent!! Also very similar to the tutorial tool i am doing for the BIM WB.... I'll have a better look at yours
This kind of tool can have a huge impact on FreeCAD leaning
Ultimately you have to recognize that FreeCAD is a complex system with many, many tools in many workbenches. It is difficult to handle everything at the same time in a 100% coherent manner. And the same thing exists in commercial CAD systems; they have hundreds of tools to do a variety of things. Some of those tools may also conflict with each other, or lead to unsatisfactory results. In particular, in CAD it's the opposite of the Zen of Python.

Python Zen: there should be one obvious way of doing things.

CAD: there are many ways of achieving your result (drawing something on the screen). This is basically true for every CAD system. Some workflows are "better" or "recommended", but ultimately the user can do whatever he or she wants.
Roy_043
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:17 am

vocx
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:20 am

Roy_043 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:52 am
My assumption at this point is that Part tools can be used inside an Arch/BIM workflow without any issues. If you know of any specific problems please share them.
Well, you already saw the problems in this thread about the Window, and trying to cut a wall with Part Cut. Boolean operations like that aren't ideal with Arch objects.

The Part Workbench is in general a thin layer that exposes the OCCT geometric functions. Therefore the operations that Part provides are very simple, raw, you could say. Arch and BIM create what is called Scripted objects, which are Python objects that not only have a Part.Shape inside, but also have properties and logic behind them. This allows them to behave in complex ways relative to a simple Part.Shape.

So, for example, all Arch objects are based on the Arch Component class, which makes them intelligent for certain operations like additions and subtractions and other things like that (textures, materials, snapping points, clones, other things?).
vocx
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:21 am

Roy_043 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:17 am
Maybe this is useful:
https://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/BIM_ingame_tutorial
Thanks. I guess this is the tutorial tool I was talking about.
Roy_043
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby Roy_043 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:46 am

vocx wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:20 am
Well, you already saw the problems in this thread...
OK, so a cut is not recognized as a wall. I would not call that a problem. I can think of examples where you would have to use tools from another WB. F.e. a wall with a niche with filleted edges.
Attachments
WallWithNiche.png
WallWithNiche.png (10.7 KiB) Viewed 118 times
vocx
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Re: Arch: window/door in a Cut does not make a hole

Postby vocx » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:07 pm

Roy_043 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:46 am
OK, so a cut is not recognized as a wall. I would not call that a problem.
It is a "problem" if the user creates a thread saying that "it doesn't work", id est, this thread.
I can think of examples where you would have to use tools from another WB. F.e. a wall with a niche with filleted edges.
Yes, that's a possibility. But you could also design the trace first with say, Draft or the Sketcher, and then create the Wall. You don't have to fillet the actual solid of the wall.