TechDraw Wiki Pages

Discussions about the development of the TechDraw workbench
catman
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by catman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:44 pm

catman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:20 pm
OK, I'll do that.
done

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:25 pm

catman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:44 pm
done
Thanks!

However, I requested you to clone this page:
https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Measurement ... s_On_Holes
because it is already perfectly formatted following the other TechDraw wiki page guidelines.

Can you please update your page to look the same?

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:37 pm

Some remarks for you new page: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_HowTo_Page

* section: "Change the Template File of a Drawing":
We already have a nive tutorial about templates: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_TemplateHowTo
Can you please add there a new section about the template file change? Then we have all template-related info collected in one page.

* section "Keyboard shortcuts for Dimensions":
What shortcuts are available is already provided in the TechDraw menu, therefore we don't need to list them in the Wiki again.
To discuss about new shortcuts we have the forum, so the Wiki should not inform about ongoing discussions.
So in total I would say, this section can go.

I hope I don't discourage you with this.
Maybe we should discuss about Wiki additions in this thread? There is already many info available, maybe just distributed over several pages. So to improve the docs we should discuss and collect the issues here.

catman
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by catman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:48 pm

uwestoehr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:25 pm
However, I requested you to clone this page:
https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Measurement ... s_On_Holes
because it is already perfectly formatted following the other TechDraw wiki page guidelines.

Can you please update your page to look the same?
Well I started like that, but it did not fil at all, because the slide box is made for a single tutorial. For a collection of topics and hints 90% of the fields are not applicable (Author, Level, Estimated time, version, files). Even the table of content is not very suitable there btw, because the headlines on those howto pages are telling headlines and tend not to fit in such a narrow space.

So I can not imagine you would want if for content. But maybe you want if for design? Then the answer would be to make an alternative template with only the information required. Below is an image of the two in comparison. If you ask me, it would look poor and not helpful for the reader.
TutorialBox.png
TutorialBox.png (37.61 KiB) Viewed 1537 times
Normal Tutorial Info box
Tutorial Box_LimitedUse.png
Tutorial Box_LimitedUse.png (5.72 KiB) Viewed 1537 times
Info box for HowTo page

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:54 pm

catman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:48 pm
Well I started like that, but it did not fil at all, because the slide box is made for a single tutorial.
I thought you want to make a tutorial on how to do things. If you just describe different features, you can take the layout of this page:
https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_Templates
or
https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_Preferences

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:00 pm

I transferred the template info to https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_Te ... plate_File because I think it fits perfectly there. If you like, you can also add this section to the template tutorial.

catman
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by catman » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:58 pm

uwestoehr wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:37 pm
Some remarks for you new page: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_HowTo_Page

* section: "Change the Template File of a Drawing":
We already have a nive tutorial about templates: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/TechDraw_TemplateHowTo
Can you please add there a new section about the template file change? Then we have all template-related info collected in one page.

* section "Keyboard shortcuts for Dimensions":
What shortcuts are available is already provided in the TechDraw menu, therefore we don't need to list them in the Wiki again.
To discuss about new shortcuts we have the forum, so the Wiki should not inform about ongoing discussions.
So in total I would say, this section can go.

I hope I don't discourage you with this.
Maybe we should discuss about Wiki additions in this thread? There is already many info available, maybe just distributed over several pages. So to improve the docs we should discuss and collect the issues here.
Thanks for your feedback. Don't worry you do not disourage me.
Maybe a general word about the howTos. The idea is that if I get stuck I have two sources: the docu page that offeres info structured by function and this HowTo page that offers info structured by task or Issue. My experience tells me you can not mix both very well. You said yourself in a post above, additional infos should not be on the main documentation page. In that case this was a troubelshooting item, i.e. in my FreeCAD installation the default was centermarks false and it took me a few hours of searching to find out what is the problem. If I know there were HowTo pages I would check those first. Since I have those offline in the help file, its valuable to collect information there. The main difference to the tutorials is that they only provide text summaries or step by step bullet point lists. They assume that you have a basic orientation but are just lost somewhere. They do not need an image to tell you where the property panel is. Thus its a lot of information with a small data footprint.
I am quite motivated in this, because I have been using FreeCAD since a few years but had a steep learning curve because I used it only a few weeks intensively and then a few month not at all. So I think I can very well put myself in a new user shoes and see things that pose difficulties that an expert would not spot any more. Personally I find FreeCAD such a useful endeavour that I think I should give back something where I am an expert: newbie issues. :)


* I actually have considered to add it to the tutorial. In the mean time I saw that you moved it already to the tutorial. I had a look, and must admit I don't think it placed well, because it breaks the flow. I did that tutrial yesterday and I can tell you that at that point I want to know how to create a template page, not how to change on on an existing drawing. If at all, this info should go to the end of the page. Thats where I followed the tutorial and have a file that I can load in FreeCAD. Thats where I see what did ot work and then - and only then - I need to find a solution to swap my file. So we could move it to the bottom. But I think the better solution is to move it back to the HowTo page and in the last chapter place a sentence with a link to this on the HowTo page. That way two use cases are covered: people browsing tips around the WB and people doing the tutorial. Now only one is covered. Think about it, in the mean time I put a link to the HowTo page.

* Just saw your posts while I am writing... Your two layout alternatives. Forgive me, but I can not see a difference. Or is it just that the TOC is on the right?

* Your TechDraw menu does list short cuts? I agree that if it would look like the Assembly3 WB we would not need a wiki entry for that, otherwise we would. This is how my menu is looking. The only think I customizes in TechDraw is the template folder...
TechDrawMenu.jpg
TechDrawMenu.jpg (49.74 KiB) Viewed 1524 times
OS: Ubuntu 18.04.4 LTS (XFCE/xubuntu)
Word size of OS: 64-bit
Word size of FreeCAD: 64-bit
Version: 0.19.21938 (Git) AppImage
Build type: Release
Branch: master
Hash: 5666598a6be219830a992610243fe23144a61453
Python version: 3.8.2
Qt version: 5.12.5
Coin version: 4.0.0
OCC version: 7.4.0
Locale: English/United States (en_US)

If you say information is already in the wiki elsewhere, that is great. So lets put up links to them, should we? Depending on where the info is, we should consider moving them to a place that gets added into the offline help file. Stuff that would be really nice is e.g. TNP Issues to TD, updating issues, how to mapping "lost" dimensions, autofill the editable fields, how to auto-number multiple sheets, howto auto-align dimensions, how to make BOMs. Howto make cross sections, known limiations (devs hate that one, users love it :-), etc.

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 am

catman wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:58 pm
* Your TechDraw menu does list short cuts?
Sure, if there are some:
TD-menu.jpg
TD-menu.jpg (106.91 KiB) Viewed 1519 times
Assemb.jpg
Assemb.jpg (35.09 KiB) Viewed 1519 times
If yu don't see shortbuts, there are no. This is nothing special with FC, that is the case with every program I know.

If you say information is already in the wiki elsewhere, that is great
I said, in many cases the info is already available in the Wiki. I proposed that you report info you think is missing here. This way we can figure out where to add it before modifying pages.
Alternatively you can collect all things you miss for TD in your new page and I can have a look. (I follow this page and are automatically informed when it changes.)

My concern is that I updated the complete TD wiki and thought it is ready for the 0.19 release of FC.

catman
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by catman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:06 am

uwestoehr wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 am
Sure, if there are some:
Well, clear that I did not see any, because those where the ones you added today :D .

But think about it. Every user knows FreeCAD is in development. When you see WBs like Asm3 (image below) and other like TechDraw how could a user know that this means there are no short cuts at all in TechDraw? Until you just told me today I was convinced that I just did not find the list of short cuts yet and that the programmers of TD did not put them in yet. You know, obviously. Most other people on the planet do not. Thats why I still think info like that in the wiki is useful. Docu should be for people who don't know. And I know that its hard for people who do know to see what is important and what not for the others. On the other hand I am fully aware that too much info can be negative too, but lets be honest: show me a part in FreeCAD help file section that has too much info, can you? :D

Asm3Menu.jpg
Asm3Menu.jpg (35.29 KiB) Viewed 1499 times
uwestoehr wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 am
I said, in many cases the info is already available in the Wiki. I proposed that you report info you think is missing here. This way we can figure out where to add it before modifying pages.
Alternatively you can collect all things you miss for TD in your new page and I can have a look. (I follow this page and are automatically informed when it changes.)
Sounds good. Lets try the second approach. I do not plan to search the wiki the next days, I will rather add where I feel info is helpful or if I stumble across issues. Did you ever use the wiki talk pages?
uwestoehr wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:14 am
My concern is that I updated the complete TD wiki and thought it is ready for the 0.19 release of FC.
That sounds like you think I am detroying your work. Sorry, that was not my intention. I added that box, hoping to ease the look and feed discrepancies. ;)
Is there already a release target date for FC0.19?

User avatar
uwestoehr
Posts: 1964
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:21 am

Re: TechDraw Wiki Pages

Post by uwestoehr » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:10 am

catman wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:06 am
how could a user know that this means there are no short cuts at all in TechDraw?
I don't understand. Is there any program around where there are shortcuts but not shown in the menu?

FreeCAD is a Qt application, thus the shortcuts are automatically displayed. The same is with other frameworks like GTK, Cocoa, LCL etc. So FreeCAD is just al every other program.

Lets try the second approach. I do not plan to search the wiki the next days, I will rather add where I feel info is helpful or if I stumble across issues.
Please search the Wiki before. My spare time is limited. If there is already info, we don't need to re-add it and I don't have the time to do the searching in the Wiki for you. So please only add info you are relatively sure it is not yet there.

Did you ever use the wiki talk pages?
Yes. They are very useful. So if something is unclear for you, you can discuss this in the talk page before changing the page directly. Alternatively open a new thread in the Wiki forum section.

Post Reply